Scorp. Speedo

[davidb]

I've been curious about this for a long time & it just popped
back into my head. My '76 Scorp. speedo goes to 160 MPH.
Was there ever a Scorp. or Monte that could get anywhere
near that speed? Musta been impressive to a prospect on
the showroom floor but Christ! For the record once mine is
done, someone sees that speedo & goes WOW! My response
will be "Of course, all day long, no problem, it's a Lancia".

[DJ]

I've been curious about this for a long time & it just popped
back into my head. My '76 Scorp. speedo goes to 160 MPH.
Was there ever a Scorp. or Monte that could get anywhere
near that speed?

Yup. There were two.


Montecarlo Turbo (Grp 5)
Rally (037)

:)

[davidb]

Well thank you D.J. . My implication was a "stock" vehicle not
a racecar. Nonetheless thank you.

[1,6 HF]

Yeah, I think DJ's cheating, too. For the record, the 037 'stradale' had a listed max. speed of 220 kmh (135 mph). The fastest stock Montecarlo was the Euro-only S2 at 195 kph (119 mph). So I think it's safe to say that no street version of anything resembling a Scorpion could come close to justifying a 160mph speedo.

But I'm sure you'll impress the public with a 160mph speedo. And it's no more apocryphal than my Fanalone's stock 10,000rpm tach with no red line, just a 'dial-it-yourself' pointer. I keep mine pointing at 9,000rpm. To impress the public...

[Will]

Yeah, I think DJ's cheating, too. For the record, the 037 'stradale' had a listed max. speed of 220 kmh (135 mph). The fastest stock Montecarlo was the Euro-only S2 at 195 kph (119 mph). So I think it's safe to say that no street version of anything resembling a Scorpion could come close to justifying a 160mph speedo.

But I'm sure you'll impress the public with a 160mph speedo. And it's no more apocryphal than my Fanalone's stock 10,000rpm tach with no red line, just a 'dial-it-yourself' pointer. I keep mine pointing at 9,000rpm. To impress the public...

I think he was talking about the 037 Evo2 and Evo3, not the Stradale. don't forget there are several versaions of the MC Turboo, and also the Grp5 and Grp6, and the supercharged MC.

I have seen pictures of about a dozen of these cars in one place at one time, and I think DJ (and posssibly Ed) have seen as many in one place in the round.

Ask Ken what his car tops out at. Would not surprise me if he mmanaged to get 150 plus out of it.

I have mad my car in the upper 120's. but it hits the wall short of 130. Oh, and the noseband disintegrates and the mirrors flatten back to the bodywork and oil pushes out the dipstick and sprays all over the engine, and coolant begins to piss out of the overflow tube. :)

Other than that, no problems LOL.

[1,6 HF]

I think he was talking about the 037 Evo2 and Evo3, not the Stradale. don't forget there are several versaions of the MC Turboo, and also the Grp5 and Grp6, and the supercharged MC.

I have seen pictures of about a dozen of these cars in one place at one time, and I think DJ (and posssibly Ed) have seen as many in one place in the round.

Ask Ken what his car tops out at. Would not surprise me if he mmanaged to get 150 plus out of it.

I have mad my car in the upper 120's. but it hits the wall short of 130. Oh, and the noseband disintegrates and the mirrors flatten back to the bodywork and oil pushes out the dipstick and sprays all over the engine, and coolant begins to piss out of the overflow tube. :)

Other than that, no problems LOL.

OK, but there's one glaringly obvious problem with that argument: David's original question was clearly "did any Scorp/Montecarlo ever need a 160mph speedometer?"

I have indeed seen several Beta Montecarlo Turbos in person, as you can see in my photo gallery. They were certainly capable of speeds greater than 160mph, but none of them had speedometers.

Neither do most works rally cars have speedometers--we're not talking TSD, here. (BTW, few works rally cars are capable of speeds in excess of 160mph anyway; I doubt that any works 037, Evo or otherwise, was ever geared for anything approaching that speed.)

So, when it comes to discussing speedometers, I think I will stick to street cars--in other words cars with speedometers. And I still think the answer to David's question is 'nope'.

[DJ]

Well, just for the sake of clarity (and, of course, to continue my silly contribution to this thread), yes, David's initial post did reference the speedo in his Scorpion. But it never asked whether any Scorpion or Montecarlo ever needed a 160 mph speedometer. His specific question was:


Was there ever a Scorp. or Monte that could get anywhere near that speed?

So, if the question is really "... anywhere near that speed?" then I have to argue that the question really wasn't about speedos as much as it was about ability and the answer to that question is certainly a definitive YES.

I also meant to mention Ken Haven's car and probably Tom McGaffigan's car as likely candidates but forgot. I'd also think that there have been many others along the way that have been capable of speeds "somewhere near" but I suppose it depends on what the meaning of "is" is. :confused:

Personally, I once had Lucia up to about 107 MPH (indicated) and still accelerating with the original, slightly modified 1.8 engine while trying to keep up with the local Maserati club on the Interstate. What surprised me most is how easily and quickly she got there from a 65-70 MPH rolling start. But I quickly slowed down after the large cloud of smoke appeared behind me...

Regardless of the reality of my speed at the time it sounded to me like I was going 150 and I bet all the other folks on the road thought I was going 150 when that little red flash roared past them. And that's really what counts isn't it? ;)

[1,6 HF]

Well, just for the sake of clarity (and, of course, to continue my silly contribution to this thread), yes, David's initial post did reference the speedo in his Scorpion. But it never asked whether any Scorpion or Montecarlo ever needed a 160 mph speedometer. His specific question was:

So, if the question is really "... anywhere near that speed?" then I have to argue that the question really wasn't about speedos as much as it was about ability and the answer to that question is certainly a definitive YES.

Aw, c'mon. If you're going to condition your answer on the literal reading of David's question, then by all means let's do so: a Gp. 5 BMT is not a Scorpion/Montecarlo, and neither is an 037. I've seen all three, and a BMT is a Montecarlo about as much as a Stratos is a Fiat X1/9 wth a body kit.

So if we're discussing an actual Scorpion/Montecarlo--not a silhouette on steroids--and if "anywhere near" 160 means literally what it says, then the answer isn't remotely a "definitive YES". If, however, "anywhere near" 160 involves imagining you're doing 150 when you're actually doing maybe 100, then I concede the point...

[DJ]

I doubt that any works 037, Evo or otherwise, was ever geared for anything approaching that speed.)

Just to add a bit more fuel to the cabin fever, winter blues fire, I have to take some issue with this statement.

The original Rally (205 HP and 1170 kg) had a rated top speed of 137-140 MPH (depending on source). Further developments increased HP to 260, 305, 325, and 350 over time while reducing weight from 1170 kg to 960-975 kg.

Gearing varied greatly but I'd bet that some of the 037s were easily capable of at least approaching 160.

[DJ]

Aw, c'mon. If you're going to condition your answer on the literal reading of David's question, then by all means let's do so: a Gp. 5 BMT is not a Scorpion/Montecarlo, and neither is an 037. I've seen all three, and a BMT is a Montecarlo about as much as a Stratos is a Fiat X1/9 wth a body kit.

That's not at all a fair nor accurate comparison, Ed. The Strato's was purpose built from the ground up as a race car and used nothing as a base. The Rally/037/BMT was also a purpose-built racecar but actually used a Montecarlo tub as it's underlying structure. They most definitely ARE Montecarlos.

I guess if we're going to interpret David's question instead of reading it as written, I guess we could also say that there were likely many Chevy Monte Carlos built that could approach 160 MPH, too. :D


So if we're discussing an actual Scorpion/Montecarlo--not a silhouette on steroids--and if "anywhere near" 160 means literally what it says, then the answer isn't remotely a "definitive YES". If, however, "anywhere near" 160 involves imagining you're doing 150 when you're actually doing maybe 100, then I concede the point...

OK, so what is an "actual" Scorpion or Montecarlo? Are we talking about completely stock cars? If that's the case, I don't know understand the question was even asked because those specs are readily available in numerous places.

If we're adding modified cars into the mix, there are numerous cars here in the US and in the UK that could probably approach such speeds.

Besides, I dunno about others but 140 MPH for the "lowliest" street (Stradale) version of the 037 cars (which does have a speedometer, BTW) is pretty well getting "near" 160 in my book, my imagination notwithstanding.

[1,6 HF]

That's not at all a fair nor accurate comparison, Ed. The Strato's was purpose built from the ground up as a race car and used nothing as a base. The Rally/037/BMT was also a purpose-built racecar but actually used a Montecarlo tub as it's underlying structure. They most definitely ARE Montecarlos...

You know, I'll buy the BMT as a Montecarlo--at least as much as a Porsche 935 was a 911, which is to say 'sorta'. Gp. 5 was a 'silhouette' formula at that point, which did require that the basic architecture be retained. So the BMT has tube frames fore and aft, but aside from the Montecarlo tub, it does have the same suspension layout and a transverse engine, even if the engine placement is modified. I'll call it close enough for horseshoes.

But we're still going to disagree on the 037. It used the center section of the Montecarlo, but it's no more a Montecarlo than an S4 is a Delta. Aside from the tube frames front and rear, the suspension is double wishbones front & rear, and the engine and gearbox are longitudinal, which means the wheelbase is 140mm longer. Any time a description has to start "other than the subframes, engine orientation and suspension type...", it's hard to argue that you're describing the same car. Other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln...

I'm also still not convinced about the modified street cars; it takes a lot more than horsepower to run 150-160, but it takes a lot of horsepwer--the difference between 130 and 160 is huge in terms of overcoming aero issues. The Euro MC made 116mph on 120bhp, while the 037 stradale with 205bhp made less than 20mph more, and it had a lot more wind tunnel refinement than the Montecarlo. And the next 20mph is much tougher, for both power and stability.

In any case, at this point, I'm guessing David's really sorry he asked the question...

[davidb]

Well I'm sorry for getting some knickers in knots out there
yes. And again I did mean "stock". I just find it weird "they"
didn't merely print 120 MPH & leave it @ that. I think you'd
have had a tuff time finding 160 MPH [what is it VR?] rated
13" tires back then anyway. Road tires, not race tires.

[Will]

It must be a long winter LOL!

BTW, you guys forgot one other small detail you can debete over: The (stock) Scorpicarlo speedo reads about 140 whebn the car is doing 120.

So you need a 160MPH speedo in case anybody ever gets close to 130 or takes the 70 series tires off the 13" stock wheels :D

[1,6 HF]

David, Do you mean you actually meant a street car, with a speedometer, in real-world conditions that the factory would have anticipated? Who'd have guessed?

Will, That's the perfect explanation; the 160mph speedo was really for someone who fitted 175/50-13 P7s. I love it.

[DJ]

Now, Ed.

This was just a spirited discussion with people of varying views. No need to get snippy. :)

David, I still stand by my initial statement. The "stock" Rally Stradale (street car, NOT race car) was rated at 140 MPH and that's getting pretty close to using up a 160 MPH speedo, IMO.

We can debate forever whether a Rally is a "real" Montecarlo or not. Whether it's got different suspension, aero treatments etc. is really irrelevant to me. Every single one started as a Monte, still looks like a Monte, and is certainly part of Lancia's Montecarlo line of cars. It's just the ultimate evolution of it.

BTW, can anyone tell me why the speedometer on my old 1961 Ford Falcon went all the way to 100? :eek:

[1,6 HF]

Now, Ed.

This was just a spirited discussion with people of varying views. No need to get snippy.

Well, I don't mean to yell, but JUST KIDDING!

[DJ]

Well, I don't mean to yell, but JUST KIDDING!

Ed, I KNOW! ME TOO! :D

[Ken H]

I think the 160 mph speedo was mostly for image purposes and maybe helped sell a few more Scorpions.

I tried holding my foot down for a few long seconds on a recent tour and was surprised how quickly the car reached an indicated 130 mph (Autometer electronic user-calibrated speedo), and was still pulling hard when I chickened out. I borrowed my wife's Garmin a bit later and did a double take when it showed her max speed as 128 mph, then I remembered that we'd had it along for that same tour. I've hit a bit over 130 on the track, but at that point I'm paying a lot more attention to braking and my line into the next corner than checking the speedo reading.

- Ken H.

[Scott H]

Ken,

Is the speedo completely electronic (no cable)?

I am in the process of doing that to mine and am waiting on UPS today for my speed sensor. I will end up fabricating the connection between the current speedo cable connection and this sensor. Did you have to this?

>Scott

[Ken H]

Scott,

Yes this is a completely electronic unit. Autometer #5888. You program it over a known 2 mile distance, makes it easy to swap between track & street tires, or at least to have confidence in your actual speed. It works with most OEM sensors and I believe they sell their own as well. I found a Saab sensor in a junkyard that I was able to easily adapt to the Lancia transaxle (my Lancia Thema sender didn't work). Just one wire up to the gauge, simple.

- Ken H.

[Scott H]

Ken,

Thanks. I am basically doing the same but I am going to try and adapt this sensor to the existing speedo cable fitting on the trans.
http://www.dakotadigital.com/cartimages/prd_sp_42.jpg

It has an SAE thread on it so if I can make an adapter with the other end metric I will be all set.

I have this VDO speedo. It has a calibration function to allow it to be used with almost any frequency input.
http://www.egauges.com/images/vdo/437-015-016C.jpg

The tougher part is the audio system has an integrated navigation that has a requirement for a specific number of pulses per mile. It allows for dead reckoning for the times where you are out of sight of a GPS signal. I think I have that worked out but need to get it installed and tested.

Thanks!
Scott

[DJ]

The idea of an electronic speedo is intriguing but I don't really want to change my entire dash. I like it and I have enough to do otherwise, anyway. :rolleyes:

Is there a receiving unit that could be attached to drive the stock speedo?

[Ken H]

Looks nice Scott, but only 150 mph ?!? ;)

DJ, what you're asking for would be some kind of motor drive to power the stock speedo, sounds pretty esoteric, and you'd still have all the frailties of the mechanical drive. Not impossible to create but I doubt you'd find something off-the-shelf.

- Ken H.

[1,6 HF]

Alternatively, you could adapt the VDO electronics to the original dash face and pointer. That would seem considerably easier that trying to electronically control a mechanical speedo drive.

[Scott H]

Looks nice Scott, but only 150 mph ?!? ;)

DJ, what you're asking for would be some kind of motor drive to power the stock speedo, sounds pretty esoteric, and you'd still have all the frailties of the mechanical drive. Not impossible to create but I doubt you'd find something off-the-shelf.

- Ken H.

Yes, 150 is about all this 'ol guy could probably take anyway.

So the guy who can Fab Anything and Find a Solution to Anything has turned into a naysayer? :D

These adapters are available:
http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/ProductImages/enginecomponents/computers/ls1convspeedobox.jpg

It takes the pulse from a speed sensor and then runs a variable speed motor to drive the cable. These are made to adapt an electronic speedo trans with no cable output into an older vehicle with a cable speedometer. It is only $300 :eek:.

From here (http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/electronictomechanicalspeedometerbox.aspx).

>Scott

[davidb]

$300! Jeepers creepers! No wonder D.J.'s gonna pass. + IIRC
he has a NOS Scorp. speedo [as a spare].

[Will]

what is the speedo drive ratio to the FD? How about putting a small stepper on the back of the speedo and making a magnetic ring "generator" for the CV flange and wiring them together?

I had to set up a position (angle) indicator for a project I was working on, I was trying to figure out how to do it and it suddenly occured to me I could do it with two $20 bipolar steppers and a telephone cable. Works great. One drives the other.

[John Allen]

DJ, do you have one too? I have an NOS Scorpion speedo in my stash somewhere. Anyone need one for their ultimate restoration?


IIRC he has a NOS Scorp. speedo [as a spare].

[DJ]

DJ, do you have one too? I have an NOS Scorpion speedo in my stash somewhere. Anyone need one for their ultimate restoration?

Nope. I had an NOS tach but ended up selling that off on eBay to help pay for my Megasquirt. It went to Italy of all places!

I do have a nice low-mileage used dash pod, though.