montecarlo waterpump

[gman]

Hi guys, just want some info on something.. i have a turbo on the montecarlo. i know that since the radiator sits infront of the vehicle it takes a while for the the hot water to get to the radiator and the cool water to get back to the engine. so i want to put a second water pump its an external one to help pump the water. i know one problem can be that it might pump the water to fast to get cool? but do you guys think it will be better to put one in?

thanks alot

[Will]

Hi guys, just want some info on something.. i have a turbo on the montecarlo. i know that since the radiator sits infront of the vehicle it takes a while for the the hot water to get to the radiator and the cool water to get back to the engine. so i want to put a second water pump its an external one to help pump the water. i know one problem can be that it might pump the water to fast to get cool? but do you guys think it will be better to put one in?

thanks alot

A second pump is IMO not a good idea, I think you want to eliminate the existing pump and substitute an electric pump if you are doing an electric pump conversion, but it will work as-is, if you are overheating it's probably a clogged radiator. The stock radiator has pretty decent capacity.

[sprintcarfan]

Is the car overheating?

[gman]

Is the car overheating?

well, when the car is a t normal temp it sits at 190 f but each time i let the turbo kick in the guage goes to a bout 200 f for a few seconds then comes down again back to 190 f.

[1,6 HF]

you might want to consider an oil cooler

[John O]

you might want to consider an oil cooler

Completely agree, assuming it doesn't already have one. Forced induction, and a turbo especially, really calls for one; VX (supercharged) Betas come stock with a cooler.

John O.

[gman]

hey guys, it has an intercooler and an oil cooler..

[John O]

Okay. It was just another box to check. :)

John O.

[1,6 HF]

hey guys, it has an intercooler and an oil cooler..

Yeah--I should've figured as much.


well, when the car is a t normal temp it sits at 190 f but each time i let the turbo kick in the guage goes to a bout 200 f for a few seconds then comes down again back to 190 f.

I guess my next question would be this: if 190F is normal, and under initial boost it 'soars' all the way to 200F but only for a few seconds, do you really have a problem at all?

190F does seems a bit high for normal conditions, but I wonder if all you really need to do is make sure the radiator is clean and add some Water Wetter. Not a gratifying technical solution, but it really doesn't seem like you have much of a problem. What am I missing here?

[John O]

190F does seems a bit high for normal conditions...190°F is operating temp for all the Fiats I've owned/currently own and I'm usually a very happy camper when the needle is pinned to 190° on a near 100°F day. But it might be nice to keep it a little cooler to avoid possible detonation issues with the turbo ...just a thought.

FWIW, I bought a new rad from Chris O. and it dropped the temp so much I had to put in a warmer t-stat (running in-head t-stat).

John O.

[1,6 HF]

I seem to recall my Beta Coupe running closer to 180°F, but it's been a while and, of course, the rad was a lot closer to the engine. But if 190°F is indeed normal, then I'm really wondering why "a few seconds" at 200°F is a problem.

[gman]

hey guys

the problem is say for instance the temp is at 190F and now i nail the car ONCE (IE first gear) it soars to 200F, ok fine i guess thats not really a problem.. but if i go to second then to third then to fourth then it gradually increases? above 200F

What i honestly cant understand is what the hell the "TEE" is for that sends some of the water to the front radiator and the rest the thermo? Why didnt the original betas use them too?

i understand how the betas cooling system works, and it makes sense that the pump pumps water up through the head then down through the bypass hoss back through the block and to the pump to get it up through the head again..(This is when the thermostat is closed)

when the thermo stat is open it blocks the bypass hose and opens the radiator hose so that the water that gets pumped through the head goes through the ratiator at top, cool water comes out at the bottom an goes back to the thermostat which directs it back to the block, so it can go up to the head again.

but ive looked at the diagrams of the montecarlo and they dont really make sense to ME, maybe you guys understand it better but it doesnt really make sense to me... i mean the water pump pumps water up through the head then it gets seperated by the (TEE) somes water goes through to the front of the radiator and the rest to the back to the thermostat, but the TEE is very small and i think this could be where my problem comes in with the TURBO.

Without the turbo , the montecarlos cooling system will work fine and the TEE wont restrict the water

BUT

With the turbo, couldnt it be that the especially when the boost kicks in that the TEE cant handle the speed at which the water pump (which is moving faster due to turbo) is pumping the water to it and therfore it restricts the flow toooooo much? and therfore allot of this hot water gets stuck in the head for a few seconds and thats why the the temperature guage rises slowly but surely when i go into the next few gears???

I WANT TO MAKE MY MONTECARLOS COOLiNG SYSTEM THE SAME AS THE BETAS/SPIDERS ( THERFORE REMOVING THE TEE AND PUTING IN THE OVERHEAD WATER RAIL WHICH THE BETAS HAVE AND THE MONTES DONT... I WILL ALSO USE THE BETAS THERMOSTAT AS I STATED ABOVE IN HOW THE BETAS COOLING SYSTEM WORKS..
DOES ANYONE SEE A PROBLEM WITH THIS?

ALSO REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUYS ANSWER THIS QUESTION I HAVE A TURBO AND TAKE THAT INTO ACOUNT

GUYS PLEASE IF I HAVE SAID SOMETHING INCORRECT OR I MISUNDERSTOOD HOW SOMETHIN WORKS PLEASE DO CORRECT ME

I AM LOOKING FOR YOUR GUYS ADVICE THANKS ALOT :)

[davidb]

Simple suggestions: thermostat oriented properly [common mistake]?
Proper water pump in place correctly? This happens too. Old rubber
coolant hoses kinked or collapsed? Are your original gal. coolant pipes
front to back full of crud and or rust? Of course a new and or properly
re-cored radiator is 1ST. As others have stated a 10 degree rise should
not concern you. Unless your gauge is wrong! Now it's D.J.s & Wills turn.

[DJ]

With the turbo, couldnt it be that the especially when the boost kicks in that the TEE cant handle the speed at which the water pump (which is moving faster due to turbo) is pumping the water to it and therfore it restricts the flow toooooo much?

No. The pump isn't moving any faster than it would be without the turbo. Engine RPM is engine RPM.

FWIW, I think everyone should understand that gman has a montecarlo, not a Scorpion. Consequently, the thermostat is slightly different with 4 ports instead of 3.

Gman, you had asked me in a PM about how to convert to the Scorpion-type thermostat. All you would need is a Scorpion-style water-pump flange and a Scorpion-style thermostat. You can get the water pump flange from TMH (http://www.montehospital.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=464) or perhaps a used part from someone here.

See the attached pictures to see what the thermostat will look like when installed.

As for your problems, many of us have had this same issue and it almost ALWAYS comes down to one of three or four fairly simple problems.

First, if you don't have a new radiator or haven't had the radiator cleaned out and re-soldered, that's where you should start. These radiators are VERY good when in good condition. It's generally very inexpensive to have a shop disassemble, rod out, then resolder all tubes/tanks/connectors on the radiator. In some cases (mine for example), you may also need to have the heater matrix done, as well.

Secondly, make absolutely certain that the system is bled correctly and doesn't have any air in it. One thing many people overlook when bleeding is to turn on the heater to make sure air is also purged from that sub-system.

Third, make sure the system is pressure-tight. It's usually pretty easy to tell where any leaks are, though.

Lastly, make sure your fan(s) is/are working correctly. If you only have one fan, I'd recommend adding a second. And I highly recommend modern fans over the original units. Newer fans draw more air, draw significantly less current, and are a LOT quieter. Also, TMH (and Obert, I think) offer a lower temp fan switch (http://www.montehospital.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=27_26&sort=20a&page=2) that will turn on the fans at a lower temperature.

Additionally, I recommend that you read through this rather lengthy thread (http://lancisti.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2298&highlight=thermostat) if you haven't already. It covers a lot of this in even more detail.

[gman]

yes DJ your right RPM is RPM.. i just thought that the speed or the time it takes for a normal montecarlo to go from 3000rpm to 7000rpm would be much slower than a montecarlo that has a turbo and therfor would mean the pump would have to work with a greater volume of water in the same time..I will read that other link you gave me ...

one other thing what is the main function of the "TEE" the thing that sits on the head... does it just seperate the water?

HAVE DONE ALL FOUR OF YOUR STEPS , RADIATOR DONE NEW SWITCH, AND TWO NEW FANS, AND I EVEN TRIED REMOVING THE NEW THERMOSTAT COMPLETLY AND TRIED RUNNING IT LIKE THAT.. STILL DOESNT STOP IT FROM GOING TO 200f ABOVE. ONLY THING LEFT IS TO PUT A SWITCH THAT KICKS IN AT A LOWER TEMP BUT IF THAT DOESNT WORK... THEN


I THINK I MUST MAKE MY MONTECARLOS COOLiNG SYSTEM THE SAME AS THE BETAS/SPIDERS ( THERFORE REMOVING THE TEE AND PUTING IN THE OVERHEAD WATER RAIL WHICH THE BETAS HAVE AND THE MONTES DONT... I WILL ALSO USE THE BETAS THERMOSTAT AS I STATED ABOVE IN HOW THE BETAS COOLING SYSTEM WORKS..
DOES ANYONE SEE A PROBLEM WITH THIS?

ALSO REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUYS ANSWER THIS QUESTION I HAVE A TURBO AND TAKE THAT INTO ACOUNT

sorry about all the questions just getting really confused...

[John O]

Secondly, make absolutely certain that the system is bled correctly and doesn't have any air in it. One thing many people overlook when bleeding is to turn on the heater to make sure air is also purged from that sub-system.

I'll take that a little further.

A) I've found with Fiat twin cams, it's a good idea to by-pass the heater all together while trouble shooting, eliminating one variable until the heater core and valve can be confirmed 100% good. The heater is a very common source for air leakage into the system.

B) If you haven't added a Prestone T fitting to the heater line which exits the back of the head, do it. It is the highest point in your cooling system (with one exception, read on) and checking the "T" will let you see right away if you have an air bubble 'cuz thats' where it forms! The Monte Hospital sells a very sexy brass and stainless bleeder valve to splice in at the same point, but I've found the Prestone T to be better because you can actually add coolant to the head at the T when refilling the system after a purge.

C) The return hose from the top of the expansion tank to the T at the front of the head is often allowed to have a mind of it's own. Take a zip tie (or whatever) and prevent it from having an elevation higher than heater line at the back of the head. Trust me, it helps. (Not seen in the pics below)

Here are some pics which should illustrated what I'm talking about.

Overall:
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/500/Scorp_at_Carlisle_motor.JPG


Better view of the Prestone "T":
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/500/Ignition_Overall.jpg




BTW, in the pics you'll not that I'm running in-head t-stat. I'm switching back to the standard set-up for a variety of reason, so ignore that aspect of it.

Hope that helps.

John O.

[Ken H]

Gman, you mentioned you have an oil cooler AND an intercooler, but you didn't say where they are located or what their source of fresh air would be. I have a fair amount of experience with turbo engines in a Scorpion, and I'd rate cooling as THE #1 problem. This is especially true as you move toward higher boost and/or sustained boost such as on track days. If you're seeing a 10F or more temperature rise during a single acceleration run, then you can forget about track days for the time being!

If your coolers are just sitting somewhere in the engine bay then they're not really going to be very effective. My intercooler is in the engine bay, but I've built side air scoops that connect via a sealed duct to the intercooler so it has a forced supply of outside air. My oil cooler is up front. I know it's a real challenge in a mid engine car, but you should put some thought into a good source of fresh air for both coolers. A charge cooler might be an option for the intercooler - I've thought about that for myself.

Ken H.

[gman]

Gman, you mentioned you have an oil cooler AND an intercooler, but you didn't say where they are located or what their source of fresh air would be. I have a fair amount of experience with turbo engines in a Scorpion, and I'd rate cooling as THE #1 problem. This is especially true as you move toward higher boost and/or sustained boost such as on track days. If you're seeing a 10F or more temperature rise during a single acceleration run, then you can forget about track days for the time being!

If your coolers are just sitting somewhere in the engine bay then they're not really going to be very effective. My intercooler is in the engine bay, but I've built side air scoops that connect via a sealed duct to the intercooler so it has a forced supply of outside air. My oil cooler is up front. I know it's a real challenge in a mid engine car, but you should put some thought into a good source of fresh air for both coolers. A charge cooler might be an option for the intercooler - I've thought about that for myself.

Ken H.

HI ken

thanks for the reply, the oil cooler sits infront of the car while th intercooler is at the back.. im thinking of getting a huge fan to run either continously or as the radiater fan kicks in it will also kick in..

i know that putting air ducts is the right thing to do but stupid me i just gave the car in for a paint job, and it cost a bit..so i dont want put ducts in...
1) if i have a powerful fan on dont you think itll solve my problem?

2)also do you think i should move the oil cooler to the back ?its sittng near the radiator in front...

3)ken i also want to change the cooling system of the water making the system run like the betas cooling system.. with an overhead water rail, three outlet thermostat,and romoving of the water tee that seperates the water... thing is i dont understand what the point of the water TEE is(thing sitting on the monte head).

thanks for your help

[Darren]

HI ken

thanks for the reply, the oil cooler sits infront of the car while th intercooler is at the back.. im thinking of getting a huge fan to run either continously or as the radiater fan kicks in it will also kick in..

i know that putting air ducts is the right thing to do but stupid me i just gave the car in for a paint job, and it cost a bit..so i dont want put ducts in...
1) if i have a powerful fan on dont you think itll solve my problem?

2)also do you think i should move the oil cooler to the back ?its sittng near the radiator in front...

3)ken i also want to change the cooling system of the water making the system run like the betas cooling system.. with an overhead water rail, three outlet thermostat,and romoving of the water tee that seperates the water... thing is i dont understand what the point of the water TEE is(thing sitting on the monte head).

thanks for your help

Hi Gman,

Not wanting to sound snippy, but I think what you want to hear is Yes! of course, you are absolutely correct in your thinking and you should do what you want and have suggested.

or you can read what a number of people have been trying to tell you from their own experience to try to solve your problems mate.

If you want to fit a Beta cooling system, then fit one and let us know if it works. Just because you don't know why a component does what it does or how, doesn't mean it don't work.

1. The standard cooling system works perfectly well as long as it doesn't have any air locks or leaks and the rad is in good condition. This is you baseline - if you don't start knowing that at least your rad is working properly, you're on to a loser from the start! I believe DJ advised you of this.

Yes, you have a turbo added and this will mean you need a more efficient cooling system but point 1 is still valid.

2. Improve what you have - you should have your existing rad rebuilt if you are in any doubt as to its efficiency or fit a new, alloy one. You can get one from the guy who builds them for the Stratos kits - not sure how much it will cost to ship it to you so it may be easier/cheaper to source where you are.

3. By all means change the standard stat for an in-head unit or a Beta unit - IF YOU WANT - but point 1 still applies!

4. Oil Coolers - read Ken's post! He has mounted his cooler at the front for a reason - to get cool air to it! Why would you then ask about moving it to the back where he moved his from?

5. Intercooler - again - read Ken's post and maybe look at his car. For the intercooler to work effectively where it is (ie in the back of the car) you need to duct cool air for it to work. Ok, so you've had the car sent away for spraying, but what's the point if the drivechain don't work? It will look pretty sat at the side of the road though! Ken's car uses the existing vents with a mod to direct the cold air in - if you take a look at his car you'll see that it can be done AFTER you've had the car sprayed, without a problem as the modification is under the engine cover and all you will need to spray up will be the revised side vent.

6. As for a fan to continuously run to provide cool air - 2 questions - how are you going to power it, and how are you going to feed cool air to it? Powering it be electric is going to drain power from your engine and running it off a belt from the engine is going to drain power from your engine - capish? A cool air source for your fan takes you back to the question of vents - a no no as you've said, but it might look quite funky under the engine cover - can I interest you in an electric supercharger - guaranteed to give you an extra 40 bhp with out any other mods - 'onest injun!

I know I'm ranting now Gman and I'm sorry - but it does annoy me when you seems to be asking a question, getting a reply from those who know - DJ, Will, Ken, John O, DavidB to name but a few and then you ignore what you've been told! You have all the information you need to either do your own thing or take the benefit of hard earned experience, but please, please don't ask the same flippin question to someone else!

Good luck!

[John O]

i know that putting air ducts is the right thing to do but stupid me i just gave the car in for a paint job, and it cost a bit..so i dont want put ducts in...

2)also do you think i should move the oil cooler to the back ?its sittng near the radiator in front...

I can't really say what the right thing to do is BUT...

While I'm having my hood repainted and they have a good match for the paint, I'm having the body shop do two sets of '76 sail panels for me. One set is plain-jane to (if nothing else) replace the ones currently on the car with giant scorpion decals sealed under the clear coat (just a litttle too racer-boy literal for my taste) or as a fallback if my second set are too ghetto-tastic looking. ...And the second set, I built "tasteful" bolt-on scoops out of a larger 037 scoop set I bought from another Scorp owner, ultimately so I could duct air to my oil cooler on the left side and just some more air from the right side (possible future ducting???). Mine look like this, but yours could be a bit less complicated (what can I say, I needed a project):

http://picasaweb.google.com/roadbox128/ScorpScoop#

Sail panels are pretty easy to come by, a little bit of a hassle to swap out, but as long as your body and paint folk have the color on hand, you can certainly come up with some kind of ducting solution after they've done the whole car.

As for fans, Eddie T. had a great idea I'm copying for my e-compartment mounted oil cooler, however I don't think it'd be appropriate for the inter-cooler - 12v computer fans and a thermo switch. The computer fans draw very little amperage, so the charging system barely "sees" them. But as others have stated, the fans don't mean much if there's no clean/fresh source of air. Thus, the need as I see it for additional ducting for the oil cooler mounted in the e-compartment. BTW, New Egg sells all sort of computer fans - the set of 3 I bought have aluminum bodies and look quite the part.

My $0.02.

John O.

[Ken H]

Just to add a bit to Darren's post, which BTW I fully agree with, you'll need 1000-2000 cfm for a fan for a typical intercooler. And that's actual cfm installed, which typically is a lot less than the advertised fan rating (which is rated "no load", if you want it to actually do some work the cfm drops quickly). Anyway that's enough cfm to start becoming impractical as a cooling solution. And you'll still need to find a lot of cool air which is hard to find in the engine compartment especially with a turbo in there.

John, the scoops look pretty cool! I suggest bending the center of the leading edge out a bit if possible to ingest more air and also give the scoops a bit of dimension (they look flat in the pix, I could be wrong). You also might consider an inlet grille to match the design of the center air tunnel grille. But then hey, you're the designer, not me!

- Ken H.

[1,6 HF]

If Ken's calcs are right (and I have absolutely no reason to think they aren't dead on), a fan alone isn't going to get the job done.

First of all a 2000 cfm axial fan is going to be about 14" diameter. But as Ken correctly points out, a 2000 cfm-rated fan won't actually move 2000 cfm of air unless you can effectively feed it that much air; otherwise it's fighting static pressure and it's only moving a fraction of its rated capacity.

In other words, a fan can only move air if you efficiently supply it with air. You can mount a 2000 cfm-rated fan, but if you're only supplying it with 500 cfm of air, then 500 cfm of air is all you get (aside from a fan that's laboring pretty hard). And what everyone with experience is telling you is that you don't have any way of flowing the necessary volume of air to an intercooler in the engine compartment--fan or no fan--without ducting it in somehow.

[John O]

I suggest bending the center of the leading edge out a bit if possible to ingest more air and also give the scoops a bit of dimension (they look flat in the pix, I could be wrong).

They're definitely conservative; the opening is something like 2 to 2-1/2 inches deep. I was trying to balance a few things A) making sure the extraction vents would still function, B) keeping them from looking 037-wannabe, C) and still get some positive pressure ....but I am sooo done working on those things ...if you know what I mean.



You also might consider an inlet grille to match the design of the center air tunnel grille. I have a couple grill options I played with and I'm not sure what's going to be better until the scoops are on the car - but we're on the same page - I was thinking something like the bumper grills, but I also have something in the works that mimicks the extractor vents right next-door. I never finalized mounting points for grill options 'cuz I ran up against the deadline of simply getting the scoops and sails to the shop for paint.

John O.

[gman]

Hi Gman,

Not wanting to sound snippy, but I think what you want to hear is Yes! of course, you are absolutely correct in your thinking and you should do what you want and have suggested.

or you can read what a number of people have been trying to tell you from their own experience to try to solve your problems mate.

If you want to fit a Beta cooling system, then fit one and let us know if it works. Just because you don't know why a component does what it does or how, doesn't mean it don't work.

1. The standard cooling system works perfectly well as long as it doesn't have any air locks or leaks and the rad is in good condition. This is you baseline - if you don't start knowing that at least your rad is working properly, you're on to a loser from the start! I believe DJ advised you of this.

Yes, you have a turbo added and this will mean you need a more efficient cooling system but point 1 is still valid.

2. Improve what you have - you should have your existing rad rebuilt if you are in any doubt as to its efficiency or fit a new, alloy one. You can get one from the guy who builds them for the Stratos kits - not sure how much it will cost to ship it to you so it may be easier/cheaper to source where you are.

3. By all means change the standard stat for an in-head unit or a Beta unit - IF YOU WANT - but point 1 still applies!

4. Oil Coolers - read Ken's post! He has mounted his cooler at the front for a reason - to get cool air to it! Why would you then ask about moving it to the back where he moved his from?

5. Intercooler - again - read Ken's post and maybe look at his car. For the intercooler to work effectively where it is (ie in the back of the car) you need to duct cool air for it to work. Ok, so you've had the car sent away for spraying, but what's the point if the drivechain don't work? It will look pretty sat at the side of the road though! Ken's car uses the existing vents with a mod to direct the cold air in - if you take a look at his car you'll see that it can be done AFTER you've had the car sprayed, without a problem as the modification is under the engine cover and all you will need to spray up will be the revised side vent.

6. As for a fan to continuously run to provide cool air - 2 questions - how are you going to power it, and how are you going to feed cool air to it? Powering it be electric is going to drain power from your engine and running it off a belt from the engine is going to drain power from your engine - capish? A cool air source for your fan takes you back to the question of vents - a no no as you've said, but it might look quite funky under the engine cover - can I interest you in an electric supercharger - guaranteed to give you an extra 40 bhp with out any other mods - 'onest injun!

I know I'm ranting now Gman and I'm sorry - but it does annoy me when you seems to be asking a question, getting a reply from those who know - DJ, Will, Ken, John O, DavidB to name but a few and then you ignore what you've been told! You have all the information you need to either do your own thing or take the benefit of hard earned experience, but please, please don't ask the same flippin question to someone else!

Good luck!

Hi Darren

sorry but i just thought a forum was there for different people to say different things about doing things in different ways and to ask questions.. so i really dont know why you are letting your panties drop...

AS FOR
"1. The standard cooling system works perfectly well as long as it doesn't have any air locks or leaks and the rad is in good condition. This is you baseline - if you don't start knowing that at least your rad is working properly, you're on to a loser from the start! I believe DJ advised you of this. Yes, you have a turbo added and this will mean you need a more efficient cooling system but point 1 is still valid."

your contradicting yourself... as i said the temperature is fine untill the boost kicks in then it goes 10F higher than 190F ... i did do most of the things that they told me to do and it didnt work.. so what am i supposed to do?? stop asking questions???



AS FOR "Oil Coolers - read Ken's post! He has mounted his cooler at the front for a reason - to get cool air to it! Why would you then ask about moving it to the back where he moved his from?"

All i meant was that if a car has an engine at the back and the intercooler sits infront you have a lot more turbo lag... so if your oil cooler sits infront surely it will also be affected somehow?? thats why i asked about putting it at the back, all i was waiting for was kevs reply or thoughts!!!
Before i get a snotty comment darren i have read that kevs intercooler sits at the back!!!


AS FOR "If you want to fit a Beta cooling system, then fit one and let us know if it works. Just because you don't know why a component does what it does or how, doesn't mean it don't work"
OH REALLY????? IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT IT DOES THEN HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT WORKS!!!!!!!!what if this is whats causing the problem???????

ive read a few posts where theyve said your an A******, i guess atleast now i understand why... :)
AS for everyone DJ, Will, Ken, John O, DavidB and all the others that DARREN FORGOT to mention that has helped me thank you for all your replies and time...

i know i may not have as much knowledge as most of the people on this forum and that may be the reason for ALL THE QUESTIONS. i just thought that you could ask a question twice or ask as many questions that you want ??? especially when the problem hasnt been solved... i guess not

so please DARREN could you inform any new members of lancisti that they should not ask the same or tooo many questions....?

THANKS DARREN FOR YOUR SNIPPY HELP:)

[gman]

I can't really say what the right thing to do is BUT...

While I'm having my hood repainted and they have a good match for the paint, I'm having the body shop do two sets of '76 sail panels for me. One set is plain-jane to (if nothing else) replace the ones currently on the car with giant scorpion decals sealed under the clear coat (just a litttle too racer-boy literal for my taste) or as a fallback if my second set are too ghetto-tastic looking. ...And the second set, I built "tasteful" bolt-on scoops out of a larger 037 scoop set I bought from another Scorp owner, ultimately so I could duct air to my oil cooler on the left side and just some more air from the right side (possible future ducting???). Mine look like this, but yours could be a bit less complicated (what can I say, I needed a project):

http://picasaweb.google.com/roadbox128/ScorpScoop#

Sail panels are pretty easy to come by, a little bit of a hassle to swap out, but as long as your body and paint folk have the color on hand, you can certainly come up with some kind of ducting solution after they've done the whole car.

As for fans, Eddie T. had a great idea I'm copying for my e-compartment mounted oil cooler, however I don't think it'd be appropriate for the inter-cooler - 12v computer fans and a thermo switch. The computer fans draw very little amperage, so the charging system barely "sees" them. But as others have stated, the fans don't mean much if there's no clean/fresh source of air. Thus, the need as I see it for additional ducting for the oil cooler mounted in the e-compartment. BTW, New Egg sells all sort of computer fans - the set of 3 I bought have aluminum bodies and look quite the part.

My $0.02.

John O.

HI John

atleast i can see buy your pics you enjoy working on your car:).
Any ways is see now what you did with the air vents, and i understand now what you mean about sufficient air..... and your right those 12v computer fans is definatly a great idea...

thanks allot john for all of your help....

[gman]

Thanks ED

i understand now through your detailed explanation of why the fan story wont work... i see what you mean that even though the fan will be pumping its heart out it wont be getting enough clean air to do its job...

thanks for the reply :)

[Will]

First, guys please aplologize and make up- we know you didn't mean to get on eath other's a**es, it's just winter. We get it. BTDT. :)

That said, I have a few suggestions not pointed out so far that I've read (may have missed).

First one is: The spike in temperature is as measured at the head. THIS MEANS NOTHING in terms of radiator, etc- all it says is that more heat is being soaked up by the coolant due to the excess burn energy.
Now, if you measured the coolant temp at the RETURN to the water pump, and found a corresponding temperature spike of 10 degrees, it would show that the radiator was not dissipating the additional heat.

As it stands (from the way I read it) you don't know that the heat isn't being dissipated entirely by the radiator and the coolant coming back to the engine at the same temp, or a degree above, or two degrees, or five degrees. You could another temp sensor to a tube section spliced inot the radiator return, and IMO that would give you a much better idea of the extent of the problem IF THERE even is a problem, which is (as of yet) undetermined from my POV.

Second point/suggestion I'd like to make: Don't forget there is a whole lot of open area in the "belly pan" area behind the gas tank that could be fitted with an IC, and there are also the rear louvers. We know that enough air goes in the back louvers and up from beneath the car that coupled with the rarefied airflow over the top of the car can actually start to lift the engine lid at speed, so there is presumably a pretty good pressure differential there. I would consider fabricating a cheap test "shorty" belly pan that is cut for the IC and mount the IC horizontally and give it a try.

Lastly, fans on an IC? Do you really need them for 6lbs of boost? An IC acts like a "reserve battery" for lack of a better term, due to its thermal mass. It's temperature goes up- theoretically - with the volume of boosted air passing through it (heat soak)At that point the car is also threoretically in forward motion (iunless its on a dyno) and airflow due to motion requires no fan and IMO an adequately sized intercooler is better than fans- at least tiny PC cooling fans. A 14" SPAL or other narrow vane fan that doesn't impede natural airflow much might be a nice add on, but see if it's necessary first. There are ricers that run 15psi boost -without fans.


Just some thoughts, and since I've had my own cooling system redesign struggles the last round on my car (which the car won) I'm not claiming to be some sort of expert- I do think the above factors warrant consideration in the mix though.

Above all- good luck!

[DJ]

sorry but i just thought a forum was there for different people to say different things about doing things in different ways and to ask questions..

For the record, one of the main reasons I started this site was specifically to provide an online venue where people can ask as many questions as they need to ask and to get help with their Lancia problems.

That said, however, new members are expected to use the search functions to see if the questions they want to ask have already been answered. Most of the time they have been answered more than once. Everyone should understand that answering the same questions over and over again does get tiresome for site participants.

And just one more thing "for the record". EVERYONE is welcome here at Lancisti. However, derogatory remarks towards other site users are absolutely not tolerated. I'm sure I've missed some of these instances over the years but I try to contain them as best I can. Many of us (especially me) have been guilty of that at some time or another but it doesn't make it right. Please keep this in mind when posting here in the future.

So now, back to the subject at hand.

First of all, I'm actually still not completely convinced that you have as big a problem as you imagine. But I'm not there so it's hard to say. Your earlier post said the following.


...when the car is at normal temp it sits at 190 f but each time i let the turbo kick in the guage goes to a bout 200 f for a few seconds then comes down again back to 190 f.

I would pretty much expect this to be the case with a turbo. You're quickly adding a lot of extra heat but, as you say, it's only 10 degrees for a few seconds then it goes back to normal again. My old turbo Scorpion (#219) would do that, then overheat. A rebuilt radiator solved the overheating but the temperature always rose a few degrees when the turbo first kicked in but would drop quickly back to normal.

Also, I honestly don't think focusing on the intercooler or the oil cooler will do much to resolve this particular issue. Both will certainly help to maintain overall operating temperatures to acceptable levels but I don't believe either has much effect on this near-instantaneous temperature delta.

As for changing to a Beta-style cooling system, there's certainly no harm in doing it. However, like Darren, I really wouldn't get my panties in a wad worrying over HOW each system works. Both systems work very well if everything is in good order and I've never heard anyone state that one works better than the other. Most people I know who made this conversion on their Scorpion did it mostly because they didn't like the look of the stock setup. To my knowledge, no one ever said it worked any better. Accordingly, I say give it a shot if you want but don't expect any sort of massive improvement. Also, you should understand that the pipe going over the head makes it a major PITA to access the spark plugs and clean out the head cavities.

Going back to another of your previous posts you indicated "radiator done". But I'd ask exactly what you mean by that. Is it a new AND pressure-tested unit or has it been completely disassembled, rodded-out, then completely re-soldered and pressure tested? If so, then I'd say you can certainly look elsewhere. But if not, I'll still point you back in that direction.

Way back when I first got Lucia, I figured I had "done" the radiator because I had removed it, flushed it, tested it for flow with a water hose and it looked fine to me. Later, after still having overheating problems, I had it completely rebuilt, which instantly solved my temperature problems. The radiator shop first showed me the white encrustations at the ends of most of the tubes where they were soldered into the end tanks. This indicates seepage and loss of pressure with resultant loss of efficiency. After the rebuild they also showed me the massive amount of crud that they had cleaned out of the tubes. I was amazed.

I'm not trying to suggest that you haven't done the right thing with your radiator. I'm just saying that it is the number 1 most important piece of the pie and am asking what the extent of the work was when you say "done". I had personally been in denial because the radiator looked fine to me and I really didn't think it could possibly be the real problem. I'd like to save everyone that pain and aggravation.

One last question. Have you checked the long water pipes that run to the front for blockage? I've seen some of those with an amazing amount of buildup in them.

[DJ]

The spike in temperature is as measured at the head. THIS MEANS NOTHING in terms of radiator, etc- all it says is that more heat is being soaked up by the coolant due to the excess burn energy.
Now, if you measured the coolant temp at the RETURN to the water pump, and found a corresponding temperature spike of 10 degrees, it would show that the radiator was not dissipating the additional heat.


I think this is an excellent point. The head sensor is the exact spot where you would see rapid increases (and decreases) in temperatures. But it doesn't mean much unless the car continues to overheat. The fact that the temp drops quickly back to normal is probably a good indication that your overall system is generally healthy. I think I'd still go with a lower temp radiator switch in your case, though, just to make the fans kick in earlier and help compensate for that extra heat.

As I said before, I'm still not completely convinced that you're really having a huge problem. At least not for normal driving.

How does the temp do when driving hard for extended periods? The intercooler and oil cooler will come into play much more in this circumstance.

[John O]

Second point/suggestion I'd like to make: Don't forget there is a whole lot of open area in the "belly pan" area behind the gas tank that could be fitted with an IC, and there are also the rear louvers. We know that enough air goes in the back louvers and up from beneath the car that coupled with the rarefied airflow over the top of the car can actually start to lift the engine lid at speed, so there is presumably a pretty good pressure differential there.

Me personally, I'm pretty disinclined to put anything too very hot near those rear plastic louvers.

I've thought about the lid lifting thing and I think that differential is only lilely to occur (low enough pressure above the lid, high enough below) if the belly duct and engine belly pan are in place. I certainly could be wrong. How many Scorps actually have both in place, I wonder? Not many, I'll bet.



Lastly, fans on an IC? ...and airflow due to motion requires no fan ...at least tiny PC cooling fans.

Ahhhh, Will, I've really missed your reading for moderate comprehension!!!:D Joking, joking (and a little bit not...':) The PC cooling fans are for my ducted oil cooler and I specifically said the PC fans were NOT a good idea for the IC.

FWIW, my B-in-law added a turbo to his MR2 and I guess the standard things to do is add a fan with a thermo switch to one of the sets of louvers on the e-compartment lid. It's "sucker" I think and just managage compartment temps and is not located to serve the IC specifically as I recall it. So I think your overall point is right, the IC shouldn't really need one ...but what so I know?

John O.

[DJ]

So I think your overall point is right, the IC shouldn't really need one ...but what so I know?

FWIW, I seem to remember that Jeff Davison had a big-ass fan on his intercooler. No idea how well it worked for him, though.

[John O]

Also, I honestly don't think focusing on the intercooler or the oil cooler will do much to resolve this particular issue. Both will certainly help to maintain overall operating temperatures to acceptable levels but I don't believe either has much effect on this near-instantaneous temperature delta.

Can't say about the IC, turbos aren't my gig, but completely agree about the oil cooler. It will do nothing for spikes.


Going back to another of your previous posts you indicated "radiator done". But I'd ask exactly what you mean by that. .... I had personally been in denial because the radiator looked fine to me and I really didn't think it could possibly be the real problem. I'd like to save everyone that pain and aggravation.

Me, too! I'd love to save anyone from the hassles.

I've owned X1/9s most of my adult life and I thought I was VERY well prepared for the needs of a Scorp's cooling system because they are so similar that they even share the same radiator. But, no. I did eveything I knew to do to make an X's cooling system good and it wasn't enough.

First thing to know is that when most PO's owned your car, it wasn't a vintage car, it was just a car, and a ten year old waterpump or rad wasn't a biggie. Now they're old, some have sat for a very long time, and it's necessity to re-new everything just to have trouble free normal operation.

As I see it, and as DJ suggests, the key is the condition of the rad. It has to be as close to 100% as you can afford. You have to clean out or replace those 30 year old solid tubes; they literally manufacture more crap that clogs up your rad. I chased around little niggling cooling problems and along with renewing nearly EVERYTHING, a new radiator nailed it. Now after going through all of that, I'm replacing the old steel tubes with SS tubes simply to protect all the work I've done.

John O.

[gman]

For the record, one of the main reasons I started this site was specifically to provide an online venue where people can ask as many questions as they need to ask and to get help with their Lancia problems.

That said, however, new members are expected to use the search functions to see if the questions they want to ask have already been answered. Most of the time they have been answered more than once. Everyone should understand that answering the same questions over and over again does get tiresome for site participants.

And just one more thing "for the record". EVERYONE is welcome here at Lancisti. However, derogatory remarks towards other site users are absolutely not tolerated. I'm sure I've missed some of these instances over the years but I try to contain them as best I can. Many of us (especially me) have been guilty of that at some time or another but it doesn't make it right. Please keep this in mind when posting here in the future.

So now, back to the subject at hand.

First of all, I'm actually still not completely convinced that you have as big a problem as you imagine. But I'm not there so it's hard to say. Your earlier post said the following.



I would pretty much expect this to be the case with a turbo. You're quickly adding a lot of extra heat but, as you say, it's only 10 degrees for a few seconds then it goes back to normal again. My old turbo Scorpion (#219) would do that, then overheat. A rebuilt radiator solved the overheating but the temperature always rose a few degrees when the turbo first kicked in but would drop quickly back to normal.

Also, I honestly don't think focusing on the intercooler or the oil cooler will do much to resolve this particular issue. Both will certainly help to maintain overall operating temperatures to acceptable levels but I don't believe either has much effect on this near-instantaneous temperature delta.

As for changing to a Beta-style cooling system, there's certainly no harm in doing it. However, like Darren, I really wouldn't get my panties in a wad worrying over HOW each system works. Both systems work very well if everything is in good order and I've never heard anyone state that one works better than the other. Most people I know who made this conversion on their Scorpion did it mostly because they didn't like the look of the stock setup. To my knowledge, no one ever said it worked any better. Accordingly, I say give it a shot if you want but don't expect any sort of massive improvement. Also, you should understand that the pipe going over the head makes it a major PITA to access the spark plugs and clean out the head cavities.

Going back to another of your previous posts you indicated "radiator done". But I'd ask exactly what you mean by that. Is it a new AND pressure-tested unit or has it been completely disassembled, rodded-out, then completely re-soldered and pressure tested? If so, then I'd say you can certainly look elsewhere. But if not, I'll still point you back in that direction.

Way back when I first got Lucia, I figured I had "done" the radiator because I had removed it, flushed it, tested it for flow with a water hose and it looked fine to me. Later, after still having overheating problems, I had it completely rebuilt, which instantly solved my temperature problems. The radiator shop first showed me the white encrustations at the ends of most of the tubes where they were soldered into the end tanks. This indicates seepage and loss of pressure with resultant loss of efficiency. After the rebuild they also showed me the massive amount of crud that they had cleaned out of the tubes. I was amazed.

I'm not trying to suggest that you haven't done the right thing with your radiator. I'm just saying that it is the number 1 most important piece of the pie and am asking what the extent of the work was when you say "done". I had personally been in denial because the radiator looked fine to me and I really didn't think it could possibly be the real problem. I'd like to save everyone that pain and aggravation.

One last question. Have you checked the long water pipes that run to the front for blockage? I've seen some of those with an amazing amount of buildup in them.


First, guys please aplologize and make up- we know you didn't mean to get on eath other's a**es, it's just winter. We get it. BTDT. :)

That said, I have a few suggestions not pointed out so far that I've read (may have missed).

First one is: The spike in temperature is as measured at the head. THIS MEANS NOTHING in terms of radiator, etc- all it says is that more heat is being soaked up by the coolant due to the excess burn energy.
Now, if you measured the coolant temp at the RETURN to the water pump, and found a corresponding temperature spike of 10 degrees, it would show that the radiator was not dissipating the additional heat.

As it stands (from the way I read it) you don't know that the heat isn't being dissipated entirely by the radiator and the coolant coming back to the engine at the same temp, or a degree above, or two degrees, or five degrees. You could another temp sensor to a tube section spliced inot the radiator return, and IMO that would give you a much better idea of the extent of the problem IF THERE even is a problem, which is (as of yet) undetermined from my POV.

Second point/suggestion I'd like to make: Don't forget there is a whole lot of open area in the "belly pan" area behind the gas tank that could be fitted with an IC, and there are also the rear louvers. We know that enough air goes in the back louvers and up from beneath the car that coupled with the rarefied airflow over the top of the car can actually start to lift the engine lid at speed, so there is presumably a pretty good pressure differential there. I would consider fabricating a cheap test "shorty" belly pan that is cut for the IC and mount the IC horizontally and give it a try.

Lastly, fans on an IC? Do you really need them for 6lbs of boost? An IC acts like a "reserve battery" for lack of a better term, due to its thermal mass. It's temperature goes up- theoretically - with the volume of boosted air passing through it (heat soak)At that point the car is also threoretically in forward motion (iunless its on a dyno) and airflow due to motion requires no fan and IMO an adequately sized intercooler is better than fans- at least tiny PC cooling fans. A 14" SPAL or other narrow vane fan that doesn't impede natural airflow much might be a nice add on, but see if it's necessary first. There are ricers that run 15psi boost -without fans.


Just some thoughts, and since I've had my own cooling system redesign struggles the last round on my car (which the car won) I'm not claiming to be some sort of expert- I do think the above factors warrant consideration in the mix though.

Above all- good luck!

HI DJ

"To my knowledge, no one ever said it worked any better. Accordingly, I say give it a shot if you want but don't expect any sort of massive improvement. Also, you should understand that the pipe going over the head makes it a major PITA to access the spark plugs and clean out the head cavities."

thats basically what i wanted to know i guess, i just wanted to know if it was possible... since like i said the haynes manual explains the cooling system well for the beta but the montes not explained so well...So i feel better knowing whats happening to the water in the engine and which way etc its supposed to flow.AS for the overhead pipe your right it does make it a big job to access but on my beta i got guys to bend me a new pipe that made it a little easier to access the spark plugs..

done". But I'd ask exactly what you mean by that. Is it a new AND pressure-tested unit or has it been completely disassembled, rodded-out, then completely re-soldered and pressure tested? If so, then I'd say you can certainly look elsewhere. But if not, I'll still point you back in that direction.

Well i took it out and gave it to the radiator shopand the cleaned it out and told me alll is well, the said they pressure tested.. as for the long water pipes under the car i put new ones made of stainless steal so thats definatly not the problem

will

"You could another temp sensor to a tube section spliced inot the radiator return, and IMO that would give you a much better idea of the extent of the problem IF THERE even is a problem"
ill definatly add another temp sensor...

Second point/suggestion I'd like to make: Don't forget there is a whole lot of open area in the "belly pan" area behind the gas tank that could be fitted with an IC, and there are also the rear louvers. We know that enough air goes in the back louvers and up from beneath the car that coupled with the rarefied airflow over the top of the car can actually start to lift the engine lid at speed, so there is presumably a pretty good pressure differential there. I would consider fabricating a cheap test "shorty" belly pan that is cut for the IC and mount the IC horizontally and give it a try.

OK i think i forgot to mention this, i dont have a spare tire at the back anymore :)my bad, the intercooler sits in its place horizontally and it just covers like three of the air vents on the boot. BUT now you said something that worries me will, is there more air flowing from under neath my car to the intercooler or is there more air coming from the top of the boot where the air vent holes are sitting?

Ok thanks guys for all your help... im getting to understand things more better each day:)

[John O]

Well i took it out and gave it to the radiator shopand the cleaned it out and told me alll is well, the said they pressure tested.. as for the long water pipes under the car i put new ones made of stainless steal so thats definatly not the problem

Stainless pipes are awesome! God, I must be getting old, 'cuz that felt very strange to type while thinking about the colonoscopy I'm having tomorrow. Let's not dwell on that!

Anyway, I did the same thing with my rad, shop said it was in good shape. Apparently, it wasn't good enough. All I can tell you is that a new rad made a world of difference.

BTW, I talked last night with my B-in-law with the turbo mk2 MR2 and asked him about fans and whatnot. This is all second hand info of course, but he has three fans in the engine bay: two thermostatic on the engine lid sucking, and one on the IC sucking full-time. He noted however that the fan on the IC would do nothing for engine temp overall, only for the temp of the charge. However, it was his thought (and he's a NASA engineer so he gets room to think this kinda stuff) that fan IC cooling protects from detonation while it also makes a denser charge which creates more power and more heat to scavenge - hotter charge makes not as much power, greater risk of det, cooler engine temp. Said another way: cooler charge could make for hotter running. End of report.

Did I mention that his MR2 is the second fastest car I've ever been in? You need a change of underwear.

John O.

[gman]

Stainless pipes are awesome! God, I must be getting old, 'cuz that felt very strange to type while thinking about the colonoscopy I'm having tomorrow. Let's not dwell on that!

Anyway, I did the same thing with my rad, shop said it was in good shape. Apparently, it wasn't good enough. All I can tell you is that a new rad made a world of difference.

BTW, I talked last night with my B-in-law with the turbo mk2 MR2 and asked him about fans and whatnot. This is all second hand info of course, but he has three fans in the engine bay: two thermostatic on the engine lid sucking, and one on the IC sucking full-time. He noted however that the fan on the IC would do nothing for engine temp overall, only for the temp of the charge. However, it was his thought (and he's a NASA engineer so he gets room to think this kinda stuff) that fan IC cooling protects from detonation while it also makes a denser charge which creates more power and more heat to scavenge - hotter charge makes not as much power, greater risk of det, cooler engine temp. Said another way: cooler charge could make for hotter running. End of report.

Did I mention that his MR2 is the second fastest car I've ever been in? You need a change of underwear.

John O.

Hi John,

I knw i tink the guys at the radiator shops are a bunch of rip offs! They tel u its al fine and then after u waste so much money its not. Im definatly going to get a new one,so my mind can be clear!

Thanks for finding out about the fans. It makes sense that the two fans suck in air, but say nw i put two fans to suck in air, do you tink those vents on the boot at the back would be enough or do you think i would have to make them bigger?

Really apreciate your help.!
Thank you

[Will]

Gman:

I only managed to do some crude airflow analysis with some casette tape streamers stuck on with drafting dots, but my indications from that are that are that air goes IN the rear louvers (not what you'd necessarily expect) , OUT the vents in the engine lid (again, not what you'd expct) and UP from the (missing) belly pan area. the latter was determined with a copper wire bent into two horizontal hoops and a streamer placed between. the streamer ended up threaded out over the top hoop in my tests.

I would really like someone else to verify on another car just so there was secondary validation/confirmation. Easy test that should take you about 1/2 hour.

The right way to do it would be with tubes filled with washer fluid so the differential pressure at a given speed could be measured.

DJ: The car you mentioned has it's IC nearly horizontal, i,.e. at a poor angle relative to airflow, those fans may be necessary. It's also in an area that I can't help but think gets pretty hot- right over the exhaust box.

John-O: Sorry my reading comprehension is not spot-on, did you know I was hospitalized with menengitis January of last year and in addition to needing glasses now it takes me three of four read-throughs to remove all the typos from my posts? So, you may have to simply bear with me although I'll try to pay closer attention. But if you notice a lot of "lazy finger" errors where the key next to the correct one is struck, that's the way I type now. Not making excuses as much as stating facts. I got hit on the head with a 75lb engine hatch on my boat and a couple weeks later I got a headache that kept getting worse-and worse-and worse. The moral of this story is observe basic safety rules like securing something over your head instead of reling on gravity to hold it in place (goes for Scorpion lid prop-rods too!)

[John O]

Sorry my reading comprehension is not spot-on, did you know I was hospitalized with menengitis January of last year and in addition to needing glasses now it takes me three of four read-throughs to remove all the typos from my posts? So, you may have to simply bear with me although I'll try to pay closer attention. But if you notice a lot of "lazy finger" errors where the key next to the correct one is struck, that's the way I type now. Not making excuses as much as stating facts.

I'm really sorry that happend to you, so I won't rag on you too much ...I'll just say that I didn't notice any difference between your new posts and your old posts - depending on how you look at it, that's either a good thing or a bad thing ;)

John O.

[Darren]

Hi Darren

sorry but i just thought a forum was there for different people to say different things about doing things in different ways and to ask questions.. so i really dont know why you are letting your panties drop...

AS FOR
"1. The standard cooling system works perfectly well as long as it doesn't have any air locks or leaks and the rad is in good condition. This is you baseline - if you don't start knowing that at least your rad is working properly, you're on to a loser from the start! I believe DJ advised you of this. Yes, you have a turbo added and this will mean you need a more efficient cooling system but point 1 is still valid."

your contradicting yourself... as i said the temperature is fine untill the boost kicks in then it goes 10F higher than 190F ... i did do most of the things that they told me to do and it didnt work.. so what am i supposed to do?? stop asking questions???



AS FOR "Oil Coolers - read Ken's post! He has mounted his cooler at the front for a reason - to get cool air to it! Why would you then ask about moving it to the back where he moved his from?"

All i meant was that if a car has an engine at the back and the intercooler sits infront you have a lot more turbo lag... so if your oil cooler sits infront surely it will also be affected somehow?? thats why i asked about putting it at the back, all i was waiting for was kevs reply or thoughts!!!
Before i get a snotty comment darren i have read that kevs intercooler sits at the back!!!


AS FOR "If you want to fit a Beta cooling system, then fit one and let us know if it works. Just because you don't know why a component does what it does or how, doesn't mean it don't work"
OH REALLY????? IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT IT DOES THEN HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT WORKS!!!!!!!!what if this is whats causing the problem???????

ive read a few posts where theyve said your an A******, i guess atleast now i understand why... :)
AS for everyone DJ, Will, Ken, John O, DavidB and all the others that DARREN FORGOT to mention that has helped me thank you for all your replies and time...

i know i may not have as much knowledge as most of the people on this forum and that may be the reason for ALL THE QUESTIONS. i just thought that you could ask a question twice or ask as many questions that you want ??? especially when the problem hasnt been solved... i guess not

so please DARREN could you inform any new members of lancisti that they should not ask the same or tooo many questions....?

THANKS DARREN FOR YOUR SNIPPY HELP:)

Hi Gman,

I'm glad you put some smilies in your post or I might have thought you were trying to be insulting!:) Take a chill pill sunshine - if you think I'm an asshole then that's fine and your perogative of course. I was actually trying to help in my own special way, which was in part to point out that you should read what has been written in people's posts - a case in point - 'AS for everyone DJ, Will, Ken, John O, DavidB and all the others that DARREN FORGOT to mention that has helped me thank you for all your replies and time...' - that would be covered when I typed 'getting a reply from those who know - DJ, Will, Ken, John O, DavidB to name but a few' but never mind mate.

I'm sorry if you took offence at my post - that certainly wasn't my intention - DJ's point was well made about using the search function as well as tapping those in the know - and there are a few who are running forced induction (Lancia, turbo, supercharged, as well as other marque installations) on a daily basis without cooling problems.

Anyway - I'll not say any more and some better points have been made since your outburst. I hope you get it sorted - whichever way you choose and I look forward to seeing what the problem is/was.

Cheers!:p

[1,6 HF]

I only managed to do some crude airflow analysis with some casette tape streamers stuck on with drafting dots, but my indications from that are that are that air goes IN the rear louvers (not what you'd necessarily expect) , OUT the vents in the engine lid (again, not what you'd expct) and UP from the (missing) belly pan area. the latter was determined with a copper wire bent into two horizontal hoops and a streamer placed between. the streamer ended up threaded out over the top hoop in my tests.

I would really like someone else to verify on another car just so there was secondary validation/confirmation. Easy test that should take you about 1/2 hour.

The right way to do it would be with tubes filled with washer fluid so the differential pressure at a given speed could be measured.

DJ: The car you mentioned has it's IC nearly horizontal, i,.e. at a poor angle relative to airflow, those fans may be necessary. It's also in an area that I can't help but think gets pretty hot- right over the exhaust box...

Actually, Will, the airflow diagram you describe is very much what I'd expect. Which is why an air-to-air intercooler just beneath the engine cover isn't going to work very effectively without some way of ducting clean air directly to its underside. Without dedicated ducting, the intercooler is right in the path of the engine compartment heat venting--the absolute worst place for an air-to-air cooler to be from an efficiency standpoint. About all you can do is to try to locate the intercooler someplace where there's as little underneath it as possible--certainly not right over the exhaust headers, as you say.

The 'ricers' you mentioned earlier have a much easier time of things with a front engine location and all sorts of easy duct paths from a large area of high-pressure clean air.

But I keep asking the same question as DJ; is there really a problem here?

[gman]

Actually, Will, the airflow diagram you describe is very much what I'd expect. Which is why an air-to-air intercooler just beneath the engine cover isn't going to work very effectively without some way of ducting clean air directly to its underside. Without dedicated ducting, the intercooler is right in the path of the engine compartment heat venting--the absolute worst place for an air-to-air cooler to be from an efficiency standpoint. About all you can do is to try to locate the intercooler someplace where there's as little underneath it as possible--certainly not right over the exhaust headers, as you say.

The 'ricers' you mentioned earlier have a much easier time of things with a front engine location and all sorts of easy duct paths from a large area of high-pressure clean air.

But I keep asking the same question as DJ; is there really a problem here?

Hey guys

Thanks will il keep what u said in mind about the airflow, and if like u said sum1 else can varify it that would be great,since i would knw of a beter positioning for the IC.

Wel,Ed even kev says that i should nt push the car to hard for the time being. Like i said 1st gear after boost the car rises to 200f if i keep nailing it in each gear it would continue rising to about 220f id say then it comes down again? So im nt sure bt i dnt think that the engine should be that hot?or do u tink its fine?

As for my friend Darren:) i realy got nothing against you, and im sory if it felt like i was askin the same q over again..
As for using the search function i did! I even found djs post about the proper way to instal the thermostat etc., subgothius overheating probs, bt as far as i can remem the only monty with a turbo was kev H and he didnt realy hav much overheating probs. Then again he did the wise thing and put dedicated air vents for The IC.

Anyways feel free to chirp in anytime Darren, hopefuly i can solve the problem soon

Thanks guys for al the help

[JGreenslade]

Do we get to see a photo of this turbo engine? It's going to be helpful in obtaining advice and the forum makes it easy to upload photos.


Justin