Beta Consortium

[markwast]

I have read and heard alot of talk about The Beta Consortium and reasons why it hasn't happened. From what I have seen, there a number of individual who are prepared to do it but that is what they are -"individuals". We should urge these people to come together and maybe it will happen.
I am an "individual" who wanted to do something, I am no expert compared to some of you out there but I had the enthusiasum to do my little bit. So I started the Beta Boyz web group, of which a few of you are members (thanks), its not alot compared to Lancisti or lanciabeta.
If owners have spent time seeking out sites like this, there must be hundreds from all over the world, then there is the interest out there for such a consortium! That is why I have started a poll on the lanciabeta group asking how many would be interested, they have 180+ members, so how many of you would be interested?
I am such an owner and am very keen to do my part to keep our cars going.
Some of you may think I'm talking out my backside, so to the ones who dont think that, shout, lets do something about it!
Finally, a lttle plug for Beta Boyz, it can be found at http://groups.msn.com/BetaBoyz

[Zagato78]

Mark, count me in. We could have new parts manufactured affordably with a concentrated effort. Let's face it, there are parts we will all need sonner or later. Maybe we should start a e-register of cars/owners. That way we could at least get a count, and begin polling what parts are of immediate need? Looking forward to thoughts on this. Dan

[markwast]

Thanks Dan,
Great idea but how would you go about that, as I'm a computer idiot.
Mark

[Zagato78]

We could set it up as a Yahoo Group to start. If we require certain information from the beginning, i could have my programmer buddies put it into a database, and set up a permanent homepage eventually. Once we have that, we use a forum software to poll for the parts we need, and begin to inquire about remanufacturing of parts. What do you think. We could make BetaBoyz the first source of data collection, and spin it off from there???? Dan

[markwast]

Hi Dan.
It would be great but Beta Boyz has only eleven members at present, how could this be used as a base? Wouldn't Lancisti or Lanciabeta be better?


Mark

Ps my poll on the lanciabeta group, so far 6 have polled, in 12 hours.

[Zagato78]

Mark i agree that a site with a larger membership base is the better option. I just don't want to "volunteer" someone else's site. If the owerner of lancisti is ok with it, this would be preferred. dan

[markwast]

Well Dan time will tell, I will email DJ for his views. Lets hope this topic doesn't end here.Mark

[Bazza]

Maybe a good contact would be Alleyne Body tel: +44 (0)1455209224 or Chris Bastow +44 (0)1274 564297. They are the Beta Information/Advisors for the UK Lancia Motor Club.

[DJ]

Hello all.

Can you please provide some specifications for what you will want to see? I'm not sure exactly what you want but one of the reasons I started Lancisti is to do exactly the kinds of things you're talking about. As the system is back-ended by an SQL database, it's a perfect base for building upon.

One of the things I've wanted to do is to build a parts exchange database in addition to an updatable registry and a few other useful tools.

I can also create mailing lists for any group that wants one. The only thing I am concerned about in this regard is that an important discussion could happen on a mailing list and not make it into the Forum database for future reference. That could be covered by having assigned moderators to make sure that such discussions and information gets transferred into the forum areas.

If someone wants to create a poll, they can do it here by just creating a new topic. At the bottom of the message area there is a place to create poll options, etc. I can then even put it on the front portal page if you want. Just let me know.

Regards,

DJ

[Zagato78]

DJ, what i envision is this. We need to get a good list of the Beta series owners. Primarily focusing on Coupe and Spider owners. The Montecarlo owners have resources available to them for those previously NLA parts. While the list is being compiled, we could poll for what critical parts owners cannot find. That would be the first part/s we pursue.

I view it as a non-for profit organzation dedicated solely to getting those parts we can't purchase. There a many quality Lancia parts distributors that provide us with pistons, gaskets, and the readily available stuff. Parts like the motor mounts are critical (at least to me :wink: ) Once we have gathered the owners, we can begin to talk with parts manufacturers to make the parts we need and have them for reasonable prices. It would also be more effective than each of us trying to have one-offs made. As a start, maybe we could have a new section of the forum made for a Beta Consortium sign up, car, year, and top 2 critical parts you need and can't find.

By critical, i mean what parts can't you buy today that would render your car unusable. Once we have made availabe the basic parts for a running, driving car. We could begin working on the dress up items. New dash caps, brite work, etc. Looking forward to your thoughts. Dan

[markwast]

Hi Dan,
I think this idea of yours is a good one, finding out what owners needs are. But the Beta is a world car spaning at least three continents, and parts needs are different. I can see questions like-
Where should it have its base?
Should we have one base on each continent producing parts for its "local" needs and one central commitee controlling common parts to all areas?

I say we should lay the ground work first and strike while the iron is hot.
Mark

[rossocorsa]

the biggest issue here is going to be funding, if a consortium is going to work it will need a fairly large pot of cash to get things moving. this means that quite a lot of people have got to stump up ,say, at least £30/€45/$45 or so without any immediate return and completely on trust, this can then be used to fund obtaining parts, you would need a large number of Beta owners to subscribe to this. The parts must be sold at a reasonable but modest profit to ensure that there is a build up of funds for further projects. the legal status of a club producing new parts would concern me particularly if they are to be sold in the USA because of potential liabilities on safety related items. I am not entirely convinced the Beta is in a position yet where this will work and once it gains proper classic status I suspect that demand will ensure supply from somewhere , the biggest problem with the Beta currently is that Italians in general think of it as a pile of old scrap, once it is held in higher regard then maybe many of our problems will be over. Looking back over the years there was once a fulvia consortium in the LMC which failed to survive, at that time the fulvia suffered the same problems as we now see with the Beta, the fact is that 20 years on parts for the fulvia are probably easier to obtain than they were then.

[rossocorsa]

.............I should probably add that despite my pessimism I would probably support such a venture if the costs were not too high, the best run consortium is probably the Flavia/2000. I'm not sure that they really know why it works but they would be the best people to speak to to set some ground rules

[omicron]

We ran the Aurelia Consortium for some years. At its peak in the late 1980's it was taking up one person, full time, three days a week.

There was a membership fee of £ 100 per member, which was used to kick start production of some rubber components.

It was a limited company to prevent each member being liable if someone sued the consortium. A limited company had to submit annual accounts, so there were some accountancy costs.

Traditionally Consortia have bought scrap cars (cheap but very few useful parts compared to the amount of parts left over) and also old dealer stocks, which are getting harder and harder to find, and less and less useful parts within.

In order to make one item, you would need quite a lot of money in order to fulfill the tooling costs and minimum order charges.

Then these parts have to be sold at a reasonable profit to be able to afford the next batch.

Whoever makes these parts has to be able to know what to specify - making brake rubbers that are brake fluid compatible - sounds obvious, but it has happened in the past.

We are trying to learn about Betas having not been involved with them for a long time. We can source a number of items from Italy, new, including engine mounting, but it requires investment...

Give us your support and for those who have run Betas for a long time, some of your knowledge (you can't become experts overnight!) and we can help.

We already ship parts to over 65 countries, we have the storage space, and we have relationships with companies all over the world.

Andrew @ Omicron

[omicron]

.............I should probably add that despite my pessimism I would probably support such a venture if the costs were not too high, the best run consortium is probably the Flavia/2000. I'm not sure that they really know why it works but they would be the best people to speak to to set some ground rules

I would suggest that out of the current Consortia, the Appia Consortium is one of the best, as Don Cross can devote most of his time to running it, and the model range is relatively small, compared with the 50+ variants of car in both the Flavia and Beta ranges.

Andrew

[peter_coupe]

I would agree with Andrew. It would be much better for the Consortium if a company such as Omicron or some other get involved.

Andrew have valid point in regard to storage issue, and also technical knowledge when it comes to task such as ordering parts and they would have established contacts with distributors.

Consortium established on such a ground would be beneficial to both of us.
This is my 2 cents comment, voting poll have a lot of interested beta owners but let's see when it comes to giving money away.

Good idea let's keep-developing business items.

Regards
Peter

[peter_coupe]

Ah yeah, and by the way I just rebuilt my gearbox. I could not find top mainshaft bearing (SKF) anywhere in Australia, one of the Fiat/Lancia mechanics in Sydney give me quote for the bearing, he wanted US$250.....................while skf price in the catalog was $50.

Those are the people that we must protect ourselves from.

I used good used bearing...


regards

[Terry W]

This discussion on the consortium is very interesting - for myself in the UK it seems to me that the Beta boys have never managed a "critical mass" and I don't understand why this is.

For example for the last three years the Montecarlo Consortium has held a "Beta Day" at the Haynes museum inviting Beta owners to join the Montes for a bit of fun round the baby test track.

Each year there is a handful of Betas that turn up, and we even saw four Beta Spiders in total during the day this year, but in truth the turn out is pretty poor given that the Monte consortium does all the organising. Indeed one of the reasons I went out an bought a Monte was because of the well organised and fun consortium that exists here in the UK.

Three years ago I got all excited when the Jefferson brothers announced that the consortium was going to happen - and a number of us even wrote cheques for the first years membership - but it just did not seem to happen. Even the Castle Coombe track day this year did not yield a Beta (as far as I can remember), but there was a reasonable turn out at the LMC AGM.

From the UK perspective all I was hoping for something simple like a bi-monthly news sheet and a focus for networking. Plus hopefully an excuss to meet up once or twice a year. The international side gets a bit more complicated - and that is where I believe that forums like this are brilliant!

On the parts front I would suggest that we should try and co-ordinate via Betacars and Omicron. There is a mutual interest here and together we should be able to get enough people together to fund tooling for "critical" parts.

So my suggestion would be to start with a core group with a little news sheet - plus for sale, wanted etc. and try and see if we could build from there. Without this - you will not get the critical mass needed for funding parts etc.








[/list]

[Duncan]

I would be interested in joining a consortium - as someone relatively new to Betas it surprises me that a group hasn't been able to get off the ground. I'm gonna go and subscribe to whatever is going now so that I can stay in the loop if I don't check this site as often as I should!

[DJ]

...so that I can stay in the loop if I don't check this site as often as I should!

FYI, Duncan. In case you weren't aware, at the very bottom left of all your screens you will see a link called "Watch this forum for posts" or "Watch this topic for posts". If you click this link for every forum or topic you want to track, the system will email you the text of every post.

[Hamish]

I'm gonna go and subscribe to whatever is going now so that I can stay in the loop if I don't check this site as often as I should!
To an extent, here lies the problem :? There are a lot of websites (relatively speaking) that cover the interests of beta owners across the globe and if we all dart about checking up on one site then another 99% of our time will be spent searching for info and 1 % doing something constructive :!:
From recollection, the LMC in the UK are looking into a consortium. I would suggest that we endeavour to co-ordinate our efforts by lobbying our national clubs for support initially then perhaps prevail upon DJ to assist with databases and ultimately produce a list of owners/those 'commited' to forming a consortium.
DJs site is - to my mind - currently the most accesible site and the one best equipped 'out there' to assist in the 'cause'.
It's likely the Trevi consortium will 'die' here in the UK, and thats a shame as they've a lot in common with the Beta and I can see no really good reason why it couldn't be adopted into the planned consortium. But regardless if theres an international consortium or 'associated' consortiums around the world working together, we'll need commercial company support. Any ideas :?:

[lanciavolumex]

Hamish,

I floated the idea of forming a Beta Consortium within our club in South Africa last year, and it has only received lukewarm support from a few die-hard enthusiasts so far, although we have swopped a few parts among ourselves and exchanged a few tips over a drink or 2.

The reason why a limited company won't work is the economies of scale are too small, and most of us don't want to do this for a living.

Also nobody seems to want to invest in parts before they actually need them, and by then it's too late!

What we do have is re-conditioned engine mountings, engine stabiliser bars and shocks, carello headlamps, and we are about to manufacture a batch of our own gearbox linkage bushes, stainless steel water rails, and spoiler badges.

In many instances we know parts are available overseas, but our poor exchange rate makes them virtually unaffordable, while conversely our low labour cost means we can make parts cheaper here in SA. Perhaps we may end up exporting them on an informal basis? The problem is also finding a manufacturer who can deliver quality parts...

[TonyLanciaBeta]

:) Hi
Im sure a lot of Beta owners in the UK are not aware of these events, I have just started a web site http://www.mylancia.co.uk for Uk Beta owner to place adds for sale and wanted free of charge, In the next few days I'm going to put a page "UK Beta events Calender 2003"
Any one with Beta related meetings please email me tony@mylancia.co.uk
with dates and details.

All the best Tony Harrison

[andybeta]

With all the well intentioned talk of reproducing scarce parts through a Beta Consortium, would it not be better first to actually try to walk before we can run? ie making most Beta owners aware of the existing networks such as websites, clubs and chat rooms, etc., as for sure nothing is going to endure without Beta owners knowing that these places exist where experiences and opinions can be shared.

Wouldn't it be better to leave the sourcing or re-manufacture of specialist parts to those who already have the knowledge and wherewithal to actually achieve something such as Omicron or anyone else who is prepared to invest time and money? Supporting these concerns must be better than trying to go it alone to improve the availability of spares?

Andybeta