VX Radiator Fan

[wellingtonvx]

My VX overheated on Saturday after a 15 minute drive through the city. I only noticed it when I stopped, the gauge was right off the scale 8O , lets hope no damage was done. The radiator tank was empty, I assume the water went out the overflow because there was rusty water in the gutter. I refilled it and let it completely cool down, then I drove through traffic for another 5 minutes, the temp gauge rose to just below the red before I stopped. I then realised the fan hadn't come on. Come to think of it, I haven't noticed the fan on for a while now.

I had an electrical fault about a month ago where the low beam fuse was blowing, caused by a wire shorting on the exhaust. This was fixed by an auto electrician. The first time I drove it at night the low beam headlights died after 5 minutes. I could repeat this problem, it seems to take about 5 minutes for the lights to stop working, but no fuses were blowing. I took it back to the auto electrician, expecting that they hadn't fixed the problem, I assumed they would have tested it for more than 5 minutes. When I picked the car up I wasn't happy to find they were charging me another 2 hours labour. They said that there were burnt out plugs in the fusebox, and that it would have been happening for years. They told me they bypassed the plugs, otherwise they would have had to rewire the whole fusebox.

Could they have screwed up the fan wiring? or is more likely the fan/thermostat/wiring has just died from old age?

I will probably go somewhere else, I didn't like them not informing me it was going to cost more (since it's a big claim in their advertising).

I have a multimeter, but don't know what or where I would test. I like the idea of the override switch, but it seems like I can't trust anyone here with my car, I have had to waste money more than once in the past because the stupid idiots didn't know anything about Betas.

What's the best thing to do?

Colin

[Will]

...sounds to me like the first thing you need to do is find a mechanic you can TRUST!
Suggest you contact a local enthusiast group for recommendations in your area, or give a holler to the Betaboyz guys, see if they can help you find one.
Nothing scarier than wondering whether your mechanic or doctor's competent!
Oh, maybe your lawyer or accountant!
GOOD LUCK, Colin.

-Will

[Shant Fabricatorian]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if your mechanics have done something they shouldn't have, but before you accuse them of doing so I'd run through the list on BetaBoyz. Recent topic on the messageboard titled "Temp in the RED!!" gives a good guide of what to look for. I wouldn't have immediately thought there was a link between lights and fan but then this is a Beta so anything's possible...

[Hamish]

Colin,
it's a common beta problem, we've touched on it here before. Sometimes it's the switch itself, more often than not it's the spaghetti they used for wiring...... :roll:
It's not brain surgery, all you need is to mount a switch (I used one of the blanks next to the cigarette lighter, and conveniently any switch from a FL2 beta will fit the hole) and feed a double wire to the feeds on the fan, cut into the wiring (obviously positive and negative :!: ) and fit an in-line fuse (15A should do) on the feed to the switch 'just in case'. Test it. Et Voila :!: One overheat fan by-pass switch which you can play with to your hearts content when the temperatures geta bit on the warm side....

It's not an ideal solution to the fan 'problem' but it really is safer than relying on the standard set up. If you're feeling brave, I'd get a second hand fuse box and get re-wiring and re-plugging. It's honestly not as hard as you might think at first, just label everything and take your time... Again, you can use a fuse box from any post '79 (FL2) Beta, it's not a VX peculiar part.
If the guys you took it to before have by-passed bits of the fuse box and 'weren't too careful' then there's a good chance there will be the odd light flashing up here and there. Sadly Beta electrics are simply crap, so you will have to be prepared to get in there and fix it yourself :(

Hope that's of some help :?: :!:

[Pope1]

Colin,

I agree with everything that's been said so far. The main reason that my car was off the road for so long was that I could not find anyone that I could trust with anything other than bodywork. Keep looking though, all you need is a competent, HONEST mechanic with some common sense who can read a Beta workshop manual.

The Beta electrics are not difficult just time consuming to troubleshoot. I have found that most of the problems come from dodgy earths in one place or another and cleaning up all those PITA spade terminals works wonders. The other thing that is definitely worth doing is fitting a relay to control the dipped beam lights. As standard they are connected directly to the flimsy switch in the steering column stalk which is the most ridiculous thing I have seen on the car especially when the main beam ones are relay controlled. The manual fan switch is easy to do and gives great piece of mind. The thermo switches are as moody as anything and keeping a spare in stock is a wise investment IMO. Must put my own manual switch back sometime soon!

Chris

[Gamma1]

Hi Colin,all the previous posts have dealt with the electrics, and are good value, but your car should not overheat after only driving15 minutes at this time of year unless something else is wrong with your cooling system. Check the rad' you mentioned rusty looking water!! back flush it and see what comes out. Also give it a good blow out with compressed air. through the vanes. Is your water pump working? or thermostat stuck.The fan is not meant to be on allthe time. Cheers Gerry

[Hamish]

A valid point, but if the car had been driven before the 15 minute run across town then there's a distinct possibility of an overheat - it's a Beta after all :wink:
The pipes every beta owner should try and flush out are the ones to the heater from the back of the block - these frequently get clogged with all sorts of rubbish (God alone knows where it comes from :roll: ), it's worth flushing out the pipes once a year.
When I had my old VX I replaced - or rather had re-engineered - the old radiator with some extra 'core' - boosted capacity a bit and cost £90 all in, well worth considering.

[wellingtonvx]

Thanks for all the help guys, I saved your answers and the post from BetaBoyz (forgot about that forum).

The problem turned out to be what Chris suggested, a bad earth on the plugs to the thermo switch, so not as bad as I was expecting.

I managed to find another mechanic who just works on European cars. It was a good sign when I got there, he owns a Thema and was changing the cam belt. He also was working on another Thema and a couple of Fiats, at least he has a Beta manual, not like the others. He also said he thinks he's done some work on my car for a previous owner. So maybe I can trust someone at last! In the past, I dreaded taking it anywhere, since most of the people I have been to have done something wrong or didn’t take much care.

The only thing is, he found an exhaust leak near the steering rack, he said it would eventually burn through the rack boot, so I’m getting him to fix this. So as usual double the money I expected. Also, he said some of the bushings on the rear suspension are pretty worn, and the brake rotors and pads need replacing, the rotors are below the minimum thickness and are also scored, @#$%!

Does anyone know if the Brembos from Evocars are worth it? I think I can get some Brembos here, but I don't know if they are the same.

I definitely will look into the fan override switch sometime.

[Hamish]

Pleased to hear it was just the earth :P

The steering rack gaiters are notoriously weak on the beta - or maybe it's the case that there's not enough shielding :!: if you're feeling flush try and get your hands on a CSC 4 branch manifold (I've posted links on where to get one of these before) this is a worthwhile investment as it gets rid of the crap standard manifold and the that nasty downpipe connection which always (or eventually) blows..... Sadly with the CSC you'll still need to make up a heat shield for the steering rack :roll:
My advice would be to see if your mechanic could fabricate a heat shield whilst he's doing the gaiters.

If you're thinking about suspension bushes, get the ones from www.betaboyz.co.uk as these are the mutts nuts and affordable :!:

As far as brake discs (rotors) the Brembos from Evocars are standard Brembo replacement discs (not cross-drilled or slotted) but nevertheless very good - it might be cheaper trying to find standard units locally but that said the Brembo discs with Mintex pads from Evocars are a damn good combination. If there's a lot of scoring on the discs it might be worthwhile getting the rear calipers overhauled at the same time as everything else.... they are a pain in the backside and require regular and careful maintenance - especially on the bleed nipple.

[Will]

You can make up a heat shiels out of nothing more fancy than a bit of alumimun sheet, or even flashing. No science there- you are just physically placing it between the boot and mani, with a bit of airspace each side.
Bremo rotors should be pretty darn cheap- they are cheap here. I would rather see you support the lancia vendors, like Evocars- but you could look up "brembo rotors" on ebay and thus contact a distributor to inquire about getting a set of your model elsewhere, or go for one of the members of Brembo's regular distribution channel, as Brembos are used for lots of things besides Lancias.
Price being similar, I'd look to give Evocars the business.
-Will

[wellingtonvx]

After getting the exhaust leak fixed, I drove it around a bit, seemed ok. Then when I took it out the other morning, after reaching 150 it started sounding like a VW Beetle! So it's leaking worse than before, the mechanic said he made a gasket out of gasket material, maybe this was too weak.

Isn't there anyone here that knows what the hell they're doing?

I think I want some TAR-OX G88 or Sport Japan discs, not sure which yet.

[Pope1]

Colin,

You're not having a good time are you mate? Don't mess about, try and get the proper gasket even if it means waiting for someone to ship it to you. Without it, you'll be going round in ever decreasing circles getting more frustrated.

Chris

[Hamish]

Colin - Chris is right enough, you're going through the same phase all Beta owners do, namely the 'How Much?!!!! phase, sadly it lasts and seldom goes away completely :wink:

As far as the exhaust manifold goes, it's more likely that it's been blowing before/for a while. If that's the case chances are the two 'faces ' of the exhaust have warped :evil: this will mean de-studing the manifold, flattening off the surfaces and re-studing and assembling :arrow: chances are this will last for a while, but once they start to go it's time to look around for a suitable replacement as no matter how hard you try you never get a perfect seal.
To fix the problem you'll need to look at something like a CSC manifold (available new) or an Ansa (I'm sure a few Ansas still kicking around) not only do these remove that wretched downpipe join but it gives a one piece unit and a performance advantage. Sorry! Looks like you'll have to go and find one - it's worth it, believe me 8)

[andybeta]

replacing the exhaust gasket is not that hard.

the gasket is metal and should be used with exhaust putty/cement.

you just need to make sure both surfaces are really clean, the gasket is sitting properly and in clamping together that the pressure is EVEN around the flange. And you follow the instructions in running the engine so it warms up to harden the cement/putty before you go zooming off........

Why pay some monkey your hard earned cash when you can at least have the pleasure of mucking it up yourself and the satisfation that you've saved a penny or two if it works.

The CSC 4-2-1 is not the best of the supercharged engine. Ansa I don't know. In selecting an efficient manifold make sure the primaries and secondaries are the correct length with a 4-2-1 otherwise causes chronic interference waves upsetting the s'charger.

Best stick with the standard manifold as you importantly have the flexible pipe absorbing the movement of the engine. As far as I'm aware the brands mentioned don't have this flexible pipe. The standard manifold is the best of both worlds. It couldn't have been that bad otherwise Lancia wouldn't have put it on the car.

Best manifold is a 4-1. Easier to make as well, as 4 pipes, all the same length go, into one collector.

best of luck,

andybeta

[Hamish]

The standard manifold is the best of both worlds. It couldn't have been that bad otherwise Lancia wouldn't have put it on the car.


Errr no, ofcourse they wouldn't simply have kept costs to a minimum by putting on something pretty much identical to what already exsisted on the standard Betas... :wink:

The question of the CSC manifold (or indeed the Ansa) on a VX engine is something of a moot point, without evidence either way it's a 'grey area' until somebody tries it. That said, I had an Ansa manifold on my VX HPE and suffered no problems, as the CSC is practically identical I'd have thought it would do OK :?:


Anyone who does fit a performance manifold instead of the standard set up does have the tricky job of working some movement into the exhaust as these 'performance' systems do not have - simplist route is to cut a flexi section from a catalytic convertor pipe or similar and weld it into place where the downpipe becomes 'one'. Having done this with a solid (so no flexi section) set of standard pipes fitted to a VX I assure you it will work :!:

[wellingtonvx]

After this ongoing fiasco, I'm totally disillusioned with my Volumex and the thought of selling it has crossed my mind.

This is what's happened so far

1. Mechanic identified leaking exhaust, said it would be a 2 hour job, so I got him to fix it.

2. He found that the flange on the exhaust pipe was warped and had glass like carbon on it. Also the gasket was totally shot. He told me he spent half the night filing and grinding the carbon and then got the flange machined. Because it was the middle of the night he couldn't get a proper gasket, so made one out of gasket material. When I picked it up he said it was fixed and only charged 2 hours labour plus the gasket, not the cost of removing the carbon, cost about $120.

3. I drove it about 110km, then the exhaust leaked again. When I rang him, he said it might not cost me anything. I would have liked to have tried myself, but I only have a gravel drive, so too unstable to jack the car up. Also I wouldn't have been able to machine the flange. So at this stage I thought I would give him a second chance, I didn't know where else to take it, and the promise of spending no more was appealing (although cynically, now I think he was just trying to get more money).

4. Next he found that the manifold was also warped, he told me he didn't check it the first time because he thought they were usually ok! He also told me one of the studs snapped, and he couldn't get the proper 9mm studs for it, so he replaced all the studs with standard 8mm studs by heli-coil tapping them. He told me he got his co worker to machine the manifold and flange. The cost was $205. This mechanic is in one of the suburbs and is about 20km from where I live. He told me to pick the car up on Thurday last week. I cought the train out there, when I walked in expecting to pick the car up, I see it up on the hoist with the bloody exhaust off! I was not impressed after wasting 1 hour to get there. He told me they had tried to ring me numerous times, an obvious lie because I didn't hear the phone (the only time it could have rung was when I was in the shower for 10 minutes).

He told me that when he had driven the car out that morning, he noticed it was leaking again. He told me his co-worker had not checked that the flange was properly flat. Seems like total incompetance to me, if you're going to get something flattened, you should check that it's flat! They also found that the weld attaching the flange to the pipe was leaking, he said that it was badly welded, and that the end of the pipe and flange wasn't original. Has any one got a pic of this pipe?

5. I went to pick the car up last night, cost was $141. When I got in the car, I noticed a strong mouldy smell. I went back in and asked him if it had been out side the day before, it rained heavily, he told me it was out all day. There's rust around the windscreen and the door seal on the right leaks, so that's probably where the carpet got wet from. It wasn't wet inside, but had obviously been wet. He said he hadn't noticed the smell, I told him I wasn't happy with this.

6. I drove the car home, after about 1 minute on the motorway while accelerating, I noticed a vibrating noise, then the now familiar exhaust leaking noise.

So what the hell to do now? I rang him and told him I wasn't going to pay him any more, he said he would put it right.

The choices I have are -

1. Take it back, but how many more times will it take to fix? It's my petrol and time being wasted. Also I don't trust him as far as I can kick him. He only tested it at 50 kmh, and it only leaked after doing 100 kmh or more.


All the following mean my $466 will be wasted

2. Try to find a used unwarped pipe and manifold.

3. Buy a CSC pipe, how much are these? I think a 4-2-1 is better for torque than a 4-1 pipe.

4. Sell the car. I paid $3250 18 months ago for the car, I have now spent close to $4000 keeping it on the road, this should have been less, but I've had to get jobs done more than once.

The biggest problem I have with this car is it's age which means too many things wearing out, no one here I can trust to fix it and hardly any spare parts. I thought about a Subaru WRX, but I know I will regret selling my Volumex. I just don't know how much more I can take.

The following is list of places where I've had a bad experience

1. Wellington Automatic Transmission Specialists
2. Mossrax
3. L Alexander & Co
4. Hutt European
5. Pembroke Motors

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Sorry to hear that. But personally, even if the mechanic offers to do it again for nothing (unlikely), if it were my car I wouldn't let that clown within 10 miles of it ever again, he will just inflict more damage than he's already done.

Funnily enough I had an experience just like yours, only not quite as expensive, and ironically it also involved overheating. It was about two weeks after I bought the car, and the fan stopped working and it dumped a whole load of coolant on the side of the road. It survived that without blowing a head gasket, fortunately, but the next day I took it to a radiator/fan specialist who'd done some work on my dad's car, which was done satisfactorily. Big mistake.

After telling me I'd blown a head gasket, he then proceeded to tell me he could source me a new motor for $1500 "as these engines are wet-lined (cylinders)".

I got the car out of there PDQ...

Eventually I found a mechanic I'm very happy with it - B&D Cortese in Artarmon for any Sydney readers.

From personal experience and those of friends I tend to entrust my car only to specialists in Italian cars. They know the intricacies of the car, they've seen them before, they know what they're doing, and most importantly they recognise that as a Beta owner, you're the real deal. The other thing is that if you find a good one you can take it there all the time, and mechanics like loyalty.

For your $446, I can see where you're coming from but as far as I can see you have two options. 1) Write it off as part of a bad dream and be thankful it wasn't any more. 2) Take it to one of those fair trading departments in your city/country. I've never had reason to resort to one, fortunately, but I'm told that if you have case as clear-cut as yours appears to be they can be quite useful.

And selling it? Well it's your decision of course but I managed to make my Beta rational in my own mind. Mine cost $3750 and it's cost me probably another grand, perhaps $1500, keeping it on the road. But if you look at it another way, a cheap second-hand (i.e. knackered) WRX will still cost around 18-20 grand, and the maintenance bills for the Volumex will pale in comparison. And if you buy something Japanese for 7-8 grand, it will be slower, less fun, bland, lack the noise, ugly...(although it probably will be more economical).

[Pope1]

At the risk of inviting all sorts of critical comments from others, I have one thought on the wider aspects of VX ownership.

IMO a VX does not make sense as a regular every day driver in 2004! If that's what you're looking for, look elsewhere. If funds do not allow you to keep the VX and run something else every day, GET RID OF IT. You cannot, again IMO, assess VX ownership on the basis of costs and reliability as you would a regular car. In any case why should you? The car is an enthusiast's sports coupe' designed more than 30 years ago and manufactured 20 years ago. The automotive world has moved on 2 or 3 generations since then. Harsh maybe, but true, as with many other things in life. Keep it, put up with the quirks and keep spending (Lancias always demand attention and money) because somehow you enjoy the beast, but not because it is logical. It will never be logical, you've got to look towards a Japanese or German car if that's what you're after.

Please don't get me wrong. I love my VX and still enjoy driving it even though, as usual something isn't quite right, it isn't running properly and I'm waiting for parts to arrive! As a financial propositin it makes no sense at all. I have spent a bloody FORTUNE on that car and it has spent 6.5 out of 8.5 years of ownership sitting in pieces in my garage. It is more alive and entertaining than my everyday Golf GTI and handles way better. I ran it as an every day car between 1995 and 1997 but I now realise that I cannot do that in 2004. It is not reliable enough, far too expensive to run and, dare I say it, does not perform as well as the bloated Golf (with modifications). It evokes passion though and has character. It's an indulgence. It's entertaining where the Golf is merely very competent.

Enjoy it for what it is or remove it from your life altogether otherwise you will be forever heartbroken. If you take the latter course of action, remove every trace of Lancia ownership form your house. Every part, every picture, every workshop manual, every book, the keyring, EVERY THING. Afterwards take life one day at a time and never look back or look at another Lancia. I say this because, if you don't, there will come a time when you WILL convince yourself that... "there is something about a Lancia"..."if I only got this one instead"..."I could always"...and the same thing will start all over again be it in six months or six years time.

Chris

[andybeta]

Hi, you've had your fingers burned. Can only agree with the last post from Chris. Either you're fairly adept mechanically with these cars or you have a large wallet and pay garage rates. Whilst you hear of owners running them as every day cars you must question how they manage to do so. It appears that in your case budget is uppermost, so assess whether you can continue to run the car as you intend. If not take it off the road and get a cheap run around. It seems just a little irrational to replace what you perceive is costing you alot with something such as a Scooby that will put far greater strain on your finances.

Threaten the alleged mechanic with a small claims action. You must have a mechanism in NZ for consumers to enforce thier statutory rights.

I get the impression that most Betas and definately VXs are second or third cars and effectively toys, so can't equate them to every day motoring. The price of unleaded here in UK is 85p a litre now. You've got it easy in NZ as fuel is cheaper.

Mend it yourself. I'm sure you can find flat concreted or tarmac ground to lift the car or a piece of 5/8 ply board on which to place a jack and stands. Christ half the fun of ownership is working on them. I think you are missing out on something.

My advice - sell the car.

Andybeta

[Hamish]

I sympathise, I really do :roll: You really must be quite adept with electrics, mechanices and have somnewhere to work on it to run a Beta as an everyday car, especially a VX.....
On a lighter note :idea: , you could see if there are any scrap Betas 'down your way', although the VX runs a higher spec exhaust manifold and 9mm studs (what a pain they are) you can run a standard Beta 2 litre exhaust manifold without it melting too much. Be warned :!: Most secondhand VX exhaust manifolds aren't worth having as they've seen all the faults you've mentioned :roll:

It pains me to say that I have to agree with the general concensus - sell it. You can always say you had one :wink: even though it's not the same as having it sit there ready to go :P
On the other hand, you could just buy the CSC exhaust 8)

[chrisc]

That downpipe + manifold seems to be a common nightmare on these cars. If (optimistic arent I!) my other vx starts to leak there then it will be straight to aftermarket exhaust. Cant be any harder work maintaining motor mounts etc. than keeping that downpipe sorted :)

[Vx gunmetal]

You certainly have my sympathies, I've gone through this phase quite a few times with cars I really like, namely the Alfa 164 cloverleaf, a great car but with a real achilles heel, the timing belt. I've had 3 cloverleafs and 2 timing belts gone, one of them after 11k the other 18k !! I bailed out. I loved the cars but they were no longer making any economic sense at all. Also driving pleasure was being diminished, as my mind was always on that bloody belt ! As I am no more than handy with the spanners and would consider timing belts outside of my limited expertise and thus it was going to get real real pricey ie £2k repair for a car worth £2.5k. It hurt, but I stripped one for parts and recovered my funds that way. My other advice would be slightly different from others.

Be optimistic....I don't think MANY people intentionally do a bad job. This mechanic does seem to have screwed up, but I think he will be just as frustrated as you. Speak to him politely ( you can always raise the stakes later, it extremely hard to back down later, believe me !) and see whether he will either return some cash or put right the work. If neither is forthcoming then raise the stakes, ie trading standards, trade associations, newpaper, radio, placards outside his garage.....the choice is yours.

IMO you need to be prepared to get your hands dirty to own these cars, unless you have deep pockets. And yes I agree, it is part of the fun of ownership, well it is for me anyhow. If you have loss that intangible feeling of well being from Beta ownership, as I did with the 164 Cloverleaf, it is time to move on.

[Maigret]

The blown flange gasket does seem to be a problem on VXs. After repeated repairs as decribed above I got a custom Extractor system made. 4 into 1 system, mandrel bends.

The total cost was $NZ330.(~$US200 , 110 GBP) I just dropped the car off and picked up later so that includes all materials and labour. The only problem I have struck is the rack boots got cooked. The solution was to fit exhaust wrap.

I might add that the VX is my everyday car and have found it very reliable. It now has over 250,000 km on it.

Some simple rules. Be proactive with maintenance. Repair things properly and anticipate before it breaks.

Get to know the car and fix yourself or find a mechanic who knows these cars.

I have found the cooling system to be very robust on the VX. Above 50 kmh the fan never comes on, exept when when towing up a steep hill. Even then it has never over heated. I have had the gauge go off the scale after stopping the engine in hot weather (30-40 deg C). The engine didn't boil though so I drive the car to circulate the water. As expected the temp suddenly dropped to normal when the pocket of gas around the sensor disappeared. It has done this several times over the years with no ill effect. If you can't hear boiling and there is water in the system there is no need to worry.

Something that is often overlooked by people not familiar with the FIAT/Lancia cooling system is the failure of the thermostat. As it is a bypass system if it fails partly open this is often not obvious. The syptoms are the car is slow to heat up as it is allowing water through the radiator but then runs hot as some is bypassing the radiator. It is actually a very good system as it allows full flow of the water through the engine while heating up and so provides a more even heating up of the engine than some of the thermostat in-head designs.

If one really wants a bypass switch one can simply earth the power supply side of the rad switch. (this is how the switch works)

[andybeta]

Don't use exhaust wrap it can cause cracking to manifolds. Fit a decent heat shield on the manifold instead to protect the steering rack gaiters. Wrap the heater hoses, wiring loom in metalised fire retardant heat cloth, not too tightly to aid insulation. Also make a heat shield to protect the fuse box if it remains behind the exhaust cam box. Protect amything else likely to effected by heat generated by the exhaust.

In head thermostats enable the engine to warm up much more quickly although temp rating is important to achieve this. The std system is ok though.


Hope this helps,

Andybeta

[lars-j]

Well, this brings back memories of eleven years with a HPE I.E. ... oh that exhaust gasket! Early Betas had a fixed exhaust system, with the stress cracking the whole manifold. The later system with the flexible part was a bit better, but I had to replace this gasket so many times! The heat distorted both parts, so the gasket would not fit. Add to this the hard to reach studs and the contant danger of ripping them off. The cure was an performance exhaust with flexible section added, these are sold seperatly.
In the end the HPE went for a Delta, as it began to rust. Too much time spent below the car for every hour dring it, sadly. The Delta drives very good, and there is a Montecarlo waiting to get get back on the road, a much simpler car!

Cheers
Lars J.

[chrisc]

My goodness.. old post :)

scary stuff all of it as most of it is things I encountered on my hpe vx before it died. Thank goodness my other hpe doesnt have the exhaust problems at least - havent pulled the fusebox yet.

On a random note, my new job is shifting me nearer to being rich and famous (and losing my storage) means that the beta is gradually being fixed up. A bit.