Lucia's Megasquirt Conversion (Scorpion #1288)

[DJ]

I'm finally getting started with converting Scorpion #1288 (Lucia) to programmable fuel injection. I plan to do only fuel control for now but may also do ignition at some point "down the road." Currently I plan to use a Crane HI-6 CD ignition module.

I've purchased a prebuilt Megasquirt II, PCB 3.57, an Innovate LC-1 wideband controller, and most of the ancillary things I'll need to install it on Lucia. I'm just beginning to look at installation and I'll use this thread to document my experiences along the way.

I'm using the stock plenum from a Beta with a 2 liter engine that has approximately 10:1 CR, a Weber "Big-throat" throttle body, an Alquati 40-80 intake cam, and a Croft exhaust with a Beta VX gearbox. Exhaust cam is a stock Beta exhaust driving a Bosch end-cam distributor from a FIAT Strada.

I seem to remember that there is a higher flow rate injector that will fit in the stock Beta plenum. Perhaps a Nissan application?

First question is: Should I even bother with upping my injector capacity given that I'm not really building a race engine anyway? Does my current setup warrant consideration of higher-flow injectors? I don't think so, but I haven't really researched that end of things much.

If there IS some reason I may want to consider this, what are the available choices for injectors that will "plug-and-play"?

[John Allen]

If you aren't upping the power considerably, I wouldn't bother with larger injectors. BTW, the larger ones that are 'easier' to come by are from the E12 body style of the BMW 5 series (530i & 528i from '78~'81 - NOT the E28 series from '82~'88 ). I have a couple sets of these sitting in a shelf somewhere when I was going to use them on my turbo project (I have since gone with newer o-ring style injectors). The injectors from an early Nissan 300zx turbo (Z31 body style) will fit, but are larger and the ones I got had a 50% failure rate (body leaks fuel - not good). These options are 'low ohm' injectors and 'could' work with the stock Bosch system with the proper modifications for the additional fuel flow. The injector resistance isn't important with MS - as you already know.

You could always adapt the newer style o-ring injectors to the Beta manifold, like I did. Not exactly plug-n-play, but it does offer more options and cheaper parts.

Are you running the Crane currently? I had issues driving the stock tach when I had an MSD-6 (it died..... My Spark Died....)

Where did you decide to mount the air temp sensor? Since you are building an N/A engine, I supose you could just mount it in the rubber inlet tract or near the air fileter. I drilled/tapped the manifold way down near the bottom where there is a cast 'freeze plug' indentation. I would stress that you want to use a true GM air temp sensor, since all fuel calculations were developed around its resistance values. The 'normal' GM unit is a 3/8"NPT thread size (fairly large), but the sensor from a Saturn is the exact same resistance values and is only 1/8"NPT.

I'm finally getting started with converting Scorpion #1288 (Lucia) to programmable fuel injection. I plan to do only fuel control for now but may also do ignition at some point "down the road." Currently I plan to use a Crane HI-6 CD ignition module.

I've purchased a prebuilt Megasquirt II, PCB 3.57, an Innovate LC-1 wideband controller, and most of the ancillary things I'll need to install it on Lucia. I'm just beginning to look at installation and I'll use this thread to document my experiences along the way.

I'm using the stock plenum from a Beta with a 2 liter engine that has approximately 10:1 CR, a Weber "Big-throat" throttle body, an Alquati 40-80 intake cam, and a Croft exhaust with a Beta VX gearbox. Exhaust cam is a stock Beta exhaust driving a Bosch end-cam distributor from a FIAT Strada.

I seem to remember that there is a higher flow rate injector that will fit in the stock Beta plenum. Perhaps a Nissan application?

First question is: Should I even bother with upping my injector capacity given that I'm not really building a race engine anyway? Does my current setup warrant consideration of higher-flow injectors? I don't think so, but I haven't really researched that end of things much.

If there IS some reason I may want to consider this, what are the available choices for injectors that will "plug-and-play"?

[bjmarsh]

DJ,

I looked at the injector flow question a while back, it looked like the stock injectors would support somewhere between 120 to 137 HP depending on your assumptions/ engine build/ fuel pressure etc.

Seems like your going to be closer to the higher number than the lower, it may be close, but you are probably still within the stock injector capacity, if you run short of fuel , a slight bump upwards in fuel pressure might be enough to get you by.

Barry

[DJ]

If you aren't upping the power considerably, I wouldn't bother with larger injectors.

Thanks, John. I'll start with the stock injectors as they are brand new. If I need I'll reference your info for replacements. I want to make the initial install as simple as possible so I'll stick with the normal style of injectors for now.

Are you running the Crane currently? I had issues driving the stock tach when I had an MSD-6 (it died..... My Spark Died....)

I'm not currently running the Crane. Allen Lofland ran a HI-6 on his Scorpion and he told me he was able to drive his tach without an adapter. I tried to run it with the stock Bosch injection system but the Bosch ECU didn't like the tach signal it put out.

Where did you decide to mount the air temp sensor?

I haven't actually decided yet. The air tube or air filter housing would be an easy spot. I am looking at a couple of options for possibly mounting it in the cold start injector port on the throttle-body.

I have the "normal" GM sensor specified by MS but the DIYAutotune sensor "calibration" technique (http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/iat_clt_resistance_curve_calculation.htm) seems pretty simple and straightforward.

[DJ]

DJ,

I looked at the injector flow question a while back, it looked like the stock injectors would support somewhere between 120 to 137 HP depending on your assumptions/ engine build/ fuel pressure etc.

Seems like your going to be closer to the higher number than the lower, it may be close, but you are probably still within the stock injector capacity, if you run short of fuel , a slight bump upwards in fuel pressure might be enough to get you by.

Barry

Thanks for the confirmatory info, Barry. Everything I've read so far says I should be fine for now with the stock injectors so I'll stick with them for now.

How is your FI conversion coming along?

BTW, please PM me with your mailing address. I need to send you something.

[John Allen]

DJ

I didn't ask, but I assumed you are using the GM coolant temp sensor as well? I had modified one of my Scorpion 'T's to accept a Bosch sensor, but ended up using a GM in my case. All of the X1/9 conversions I've done use the Bosch since they have a nice T-stat housing that takes one.

If you need the temp/resistance pairing for the Bosch unit, let me know (I may have already emailed you them) I have them on another computer.

[DJ]

DJ

I didn't ask, but I assumed you are using the GM coolant temp sensor as well? I had modified one of my Scorpion 'T's to accept a Bosch sensor, but ended up using a GM in my case. All of the X1/9 conversions I've done use the Bosch since they have a nice T-stat housing that takes one.

If you need the temp/resistance pairing for the Bosch unit, let me know (I may have already emailed you them) I have them on another computer.

Actually I intended to use the stock Bosch sensor which I already have mounted in a tee. Can't remember which is which but it's the smaller of the two sensors.

If you already have the info, that would be great.

[DJ]

Another question for the MS gurus.

I've been way too busy lately to read much more of the MS manual and haven't done anything with the equipment yet. I've also not played with the software yet. Does the unit need to be wired up and powered externally in order to program it or can it be connected to a computer and played with on the bench?

[Scott H]

Does the unit need to be wired up and powered externally in order to program it or can it be connected to a computer and played with on the bench?

The MS needs to be powered either from the car or a stimulator. If you did not get a stimulator I would go ahead and get one. It replaces the entire car and runs the MS off of a 9V battery or an AC adapter. With the stimulator you can do whatever you like on your kitchen table.

>Scott

[DJ]

Thanks, Scott.

I was under the impression that the stim was only for testing the circuit build when you were building your own board.

[Scott H]

Thanks, Scott.

I was under the impression that the stim was only for testing the circuit build when you were building your own board.

I think that is the initital purpose but it comes in handy if you have a problem. It makes it easy to tell if it is an MS issue or if it is the car. When I lost my ignition is when I picked mine up.

>Scott

[John Allen]

here is the temp/resistance pairs that I have for the Bosch coolant sensor:

temp pairs for stock Bosch sensor 0280130023 FIAT
32.4F 5480ohm
74.6F 2150ohm
202.0F 203ohm

I measured this in the same method as shown in the earlier post.

[DJ]

Thanks, John!

Is that for the smaller sensor?

[DJ]

Answered my own question. It's the smaller of the two stock sensors and the one for which I need the info. The larger is the Thermo Time Switch (Bosch 0280130214). I can never keep them straight.

Thanks again, John!

[DJ]

I just figured out the normal application of the IAT sensor that I've been considering (pictured below).

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/c4e0832b436af3ef8e103a7cd7fa55b1_115.jpg

It's from a 1995 BMW 740I/IL and also used in the 1997-99 Audi A8.

The place I first found it sells it as a special add-on sensor for use in their MAF conversion for Alfa 164s. They want $50.00 for it and wouldn't tell me what it's normal applaication is. They just say it's a "generic" sensor.

I found that I can get a Bosch unit (0280130060) for about $35.00 or a Beru (13621725323) for $16.00. I've ordered the Beru part and will report on my attempt to mount it in the cold start injector port on my Weber throttle-body.

[DJ]

I know this is a dumb question but here goes.

When I first installed the Beta FI unit I decided to make a remote idle adjuster because of the proximity of the screw to the firewall, as well as the difficulty in reaching it when installed in the Scorpion. Even with the small elbow I used in the throttle-body it still came closer to the firewall than I like and I heard it tapping the firewall a couple of times during some spirited driving.

Which brings me to my dumb question. Is there any reason I couldn't/shouldn't just tee it into the idle air controller bypass line? They are both really nothing more than "adjustable leaks" of metered intake air around the TB butterfly so it really shouldn't matter where the air from the manual idle adjuster is injected as far as I can see. In fact, I'm not even sure it needs to be "metered" air anymore with the Megasquirt setup. I don't think it does.

Am I missing something?

[Scott H]

Is there any reason I couldn't/shouldn't just tee it into the idle air controller bypass line? They are both really nothing more than "adjustable leaks" of metered intake air around the TB butterfly so it really shouldn't matter where the air from the manual idle adjuster is injected as far as I can see.

As long as it is not on the same hose as the MAP sensor and the fuel pressure regulator it does not matter.

If it were a MAF system that would be different.

>Scott

[DJ]

Thanks, Scott.

The MAP sensor and FP regulator will be connected to the vacuum ports on top of the plenum. You do make a good point here, though. It hadn't occurred to me before but I guess I could just connect the idle adjust to the third vac port on top of the plenum. That would even be cleaner and simpler.

[DJ]

OK. Here's some pictures of the Beru 13621725323 (Bosch 0280130060) intake air sensor mounted in the cold-start injection port on my Weber "Big Throat" throttle body.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

[Scott H]

I think you are good to go!

There is enough of the sensor element in the airstream. Good idea!

>Scott

[DJ]

Was wondering if anyone has set up a Megasquirt with the optional high current ignition driver circuit to directly drive their ignition coil.

Any thoughts on this either way?

[DJ]

Just bought the MapDaddy 4 Bar MAP Sensor with Barometric Correction (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mapdaddy-bar-map-sensor-with-barometric-correction-p-117.html) and the Bosch BIP373 Coil Driver Mod Kit (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/bosch-bip373-coil-driver-mod-kit-p-230.html) for my Megasquirt unit.

I don't really care so much about the added boost capacity of the uprated MAP sensor but having the dual sensors will allow realtime barometric correction so that fueling calculations are constantly updated when I'm driving in the mountains. As 90% of my driving is in the mountains this will be a great feature.

I bought the ignition driver so I can give it a try. (Besides, since I already have the MS unit, it's an $8.00 ignition module!) It'll simplify my setup and I can always revert and add the Crane HI-6 or a GM HEI later if I don't like the MS ignition control.

Now for the question for our electronics guys out there.

How the heck can I determine which terminal is negative and which is positive on my (Bosch) distributor VR sensor?

[DJ]

Another dumb question for all of you guys smarter than me.

Will I need to lock down the movement of the vacuum advance mechanism in my distributor or is it sufficient to just not connect the vacuum line?

[John Allen]

Nope, you have to lock down the vacuum AND mechanical advance. And I believe (at least in earlier versions) you have to 'clock' the VR reluctor to trigger the ECU early and the ECU will 'delay' the output to the desired mapped advance amount. I suspect that locking it down as is would give you a '90deg' advance that MS can handle (i.e. delay 80deg to achieve a 10deg advance) but I'm not positive on this.

I would look at a true crank VR trigger and not use the distrubutor pickup at all. All it would take is 2 steel 'pins' on the front pulley (180deg apart) and a VR pickup to sense the timing.

As for your other question, I have that written down somewhere, I think you can deduce this by looking at a wiring diagram for a GM HEI module (which is used in the FIAT module). The module has a 'large' and 'small' pin, GMs use the same and they are pretty well documented......

Good luck

Another dumb question for all of you guys smarter than me.

Will I need to lock down the movement of the vacuum advance mechanism in my distributor or is it sufficient to just not connect the vacuum line?

[DJ]

Nope, you have to lock down the vacuum AND mechanical advance.

Thanks for the response. I hadn't thought about the mechanical advance. I initially thought that simply removing the weights would take car of that but it looks like I'll need to wire it down. I would just use a tiny tie-wrap but I'm not sure how well it would hold up.

And I believe (at least in earlier versions) you have to 'clock' the VR reluctor to trigger the ECU early and the ECU will 'delay' the output to the desired mapped advance amount. I suspect that locking it down as is would give you a '90deg' advance that MS can handle (i.e. delay 80deg to achieve a 10deg advance) but I'm not positive on this.

Of course, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Is that gamma or neutron radiation? :scratch:

I've determined that I can easily lock the vacuum advance mechanism by using slightly longer screws to hold the module in the housing. They work perfectly as set screws.

I figured to just set it to the same "rest" position as it it normally held by the vacuum advance arm when the engine is off. Is there a better position? If so, how would I determine what that is? (Cobalt or Plutonium?) :confused:

I would look at a true crank VR trigger and not use the distrubutor pickup at all. All it would take is 2 steel 'pins' on the front pulley (180deg apart) and a VR pickup to sense the timing.

I'm not at all clear on why. I know that a crank sensor is very precise but I'm using a brand new Bosch cam-end dizzy from a FIAT Strada. I don't understand why just a crank VR would be significantly better and worth all that extra effort. Besides the fact that I just removed and re-installed the engine to find and fix that damn knocking noise in the new VX gearbox, there's no way I going to do that again in this weather. If I was going to do all that again I'd probably just do a proper DIS system.

For now I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible for my little pea brain.

As for your other question, I have that written down somewhere, I think you can deduce this by looking at a wiring diagram for a GM HEI module (which is used in the FIAT module). The module has a 'large' and 'small' pin, GMs use the same and they are pretty well documented......

Wouldn't it be wonderful if it was all that simple? :mad: I know that the HEI module connectors are as follows.

W = positive lead (+) from the pickup
G = negative lead (-) from the pickup
C = negative side (-) of the coil
B = positive side (+) of the coil

However, because of the different type of pickup in the Bosch dizzy, there is a different type of connector that plugs into the side of the dizzy housing than is used in the Marelli setup. The internal pickup has connectors that are marked as A and B. Does there happen to be some sort of standard for "A" and "B" in this type of application?

[DJ]

In case anyone is interested, here's my wiring diagram. A full-size PDF is also attached.

I needed to create a "road map" before I actually do the wiring so I can keep things straight while I'm doing it.

NOTE: Updated 15 May, 2009 - Revision 3

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/MS_Wiring_Diagram_Rev_3_JPEG.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8412)

[Scott H]

I'm not at all clear on why. I know that a crank sensor is very precise but I'm using a brand new Bosch cam-end dizzy from a FIAT Strada. I don't understand why just a crank VR would be significantly better and worth all that extra effort.

DJ,

The real benefits of a crank fire vs. cam is timing control. By taking your timing off of the back of the cam a lot of variables come in to play that will change the timing. Belt stretch, harmonics that can cause the cam to advance or retard. The tolerances of the belt, pulley, etc.

From a practical perspective does it all really matter? If you are running your timing to the limit, then yes. Most street driven cars operate under a safety margin where timing is 2-4 degrees or so retarded under the limit.

To see some of these variations with your own eyes go check your timing on #1 with a light at a few different rpms and record. Switch the pickup to #4 and see how much variation there is. There will likely be a 2-3 degrees deviation.

A crank trigger eliminates a good portion of this. When I time my car I time off of the coil wire which gives me an average between cylinders #1 and #4. If you mark the flywheel/balancer 180 degrees from the original mark you can then average #2 and #3 also.

FYI - Current OBD2 cars measure crank position down to a 0.25 degree resolution.

In my opinion, unless you are going to optimize your timing map on a dyno and not run a few degree safety margin, you will be OK with a distributor. The normal variation of a distributor system will still keep you in the safe zone. You won't be completely optimized so you will be leaving some power unused. Is it enough to make you want to go through the exercise of EDIS? You will have to answer that one but I doubt it.

Ultimately my MS will get EDIS. The parts are screaming to get off of the shelf.

Nice wiring diagram. What software did you use?

>Scott

[DJ]

Thanks, for the response, Scott.

I got all that and understand it. I've read it all many times. But it really makes my point.

I'm not building a racing engine, nor one that I've ever really planned to be "completely maximized". I really just want a nicely running engine that handles the altitude here well and makes good power.

Besides, it seems to me that the cam-end distributor is likely a good bit more precise than those driven sideways off a gear. I also think that the MS will control the timing advance and dwell a lot better than the old vacuum and mechanical advance system.

Next time I build an engine I'll likely build it with EDIS, forced induction, etc. For now, I think this setup will be so much better than the stock setup or the Beta FI system that I'll be quite happy for a long time.

I did the diagram in a program called OmniGraffle. It's a Macintosh equivalent to Microsoft Visio.

[DJ]

More questions.

First is on the subject of injector banking. The MegaSquirt manual seems to indicate that it really doesn't matter how the injectors are connected to the two set of wires. Is that accurate? I've designed my diagram to have 1 and 3 together and 2 and 4 together. Does this really matter?

Secondly, I've been planning to mount my ECU either in the passenger footwell behind the right-side speaker or above the glovebox. This would mean that the wiring harness needs to run alongside the battery cable into the engine compartment. Am I going to get noise/interference in the harness if I do this?

Thanks.

[DJ]

How the heck can I determine which terminal is negative and which is positive on my (Bosch) distributor VR sensor?

And the answer is...contained in the attached PDF. It's a document that I found online and provides multiple ways to determine polarity of VR sensors.

For the record, the "A" terminal is positive and the "B" terminal is negative. See pictures below. I also updated the wiring diagram in my previous post to reflect this correction.

Thanks to having access to an oscilloscope at the fabulous Club Workshop (owned by our fellow Lancista/Scorpionista Steve Garran) I was able to definitively determine the Bosch VR sensor polarity.

A special thanks also to Ed P who was able to dig out and provide a wiring diagram for a fuel injected FIAT Strada which is the car for which my distributor (Bosch 0 237 009 007) was produced. Unfortunately, the arcane labeling of terminals in the diagram was no real help in the end.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/b50c0ae17a941cbd48c984eae1b9acd9_220.jpg

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/6fc6906232b014f70f4cf9ff4644aa3e_221.jpg

[davidb]

Thanks for the polarity D.J. . I put the same Bosch dizzy on my '82 LBZ
although I thought Bruce said it was for a Ritmo. Whatever. Now to get
the plug wires hooked up right. Those Bosch caps are tougher to hook up
than a Marelli. So it's black wire to dizzy + terminal on the left and light
blue wire to minus on the right ?

[Will]

Unless a VR sensor includes a diode to provide half-wave rectification then IMO it shouldn't have a polarity! Is it a Hall sensor?

Since you put this on a scope, what voltage and what waveform did you get? (I'm assuming we are talking about cranking speed?)

A VR sensor should make both a negative and a positive sinusoidal pulse, a Hall Sensor will make a positive square waveform.

At least, AFAIK- I'm no expert on electronics by any stretch of the imagination.

[DJ]

Thanks for the polarity D.J. . I put the same Bosch dizzy on my '82 LBZ
although I thought Bruce said it was for a Ritmo. Whatever. Now to get
the plug wires hooked up right. Those Bosch caps are tougher to hook up
than a Marelli. So it's black wire to dizzy + terminal on the left and light
blue wire to minus on the right ?

FWIW, the Ritmo is the same car. That's what they called it in Europe. In North America and the UK it was called the Strada.

If you're using a stock GM-style HEI ignition module the positive from the VR sensor will connect to the "W" terminal and negative to the "G" terminal. If the module isn't marked, it's easy to tell visually. The "G" terminal is the one that's narrower than all the rest. The "W" terminal is the one on the same end, next to the "G" terminal.

[DJ]

Unless a VR sensor includes a diode to provide half-wave rectification then IMO it shouldn't have a polarity! Is it a Hall sensor?

Since you put this on a scope, what voltage and what waveform did you get? (I'm assuming we are talking about cranking speed?)

A VR sensor should make both a negative and a positive sinusoidal pulse, a Hall Sensor will make a positive square waveform.

At least, AFAIK- I'm no expert on electronics by any stretch of the imagination.

My sensor is definitely not a hall sensor. Hall sensors typically have at least 3 wires, one of which is power. VR sensors have 2 wires (with no power) and generate an AC pulse used to trigger the ignition spark.

I've no idea what a diode has to do with it but my research shows that VR sensors most definitely do have polarity. If connected wrong the engine may run but won't run well.

The PDF I attached to my earlier post explains it pretty well. When testing on the scope I wasn't concerned about the voltage, only the sine wave form. The dizzy was simply turned by hand for the test. (I should add that Steve Garran actually did this for me because I still have no idea how to use a scope. Thanks Steve!)

ECUs trigger the ignition based on the zero volt crossover on either the "rising-edge" or the "falling edge" of the waveform. "Correct" for most ECUs is "falling-edge". If connected correctly the waveform will rise first, then drop to cross the zero volt line on the "falling-edge" as the trigger tooth approaches, crosses, then moves away from the sensor.

The Megasquirt can be set in it's software to trigger either way but defaults to falling-edge. As this is a new installation with numerous possible ways for me to have something setup incorrectly, I wanted to have this one correct because if wrong, I wasn't sure I'd be able to easily determine it was the culprit.

Just trying to make sure as many things as possible are right before I try to start her up. :)

[davidb]

Davidb here D.J.. Thanks for the response. My system
is stock so I don't know what an HEI system is. Sounds
as though you are really into something w/your convert.
Almost "Back To The Future"? All luck intended.

[John Allen]

clarification on the crank trigger vs. distributor trigger:

I am a proponent of a crank fire trigger for a couple reasons.

First, if you are going to keep a single coil and use the distributor to 'distribute' the spark, then the distributor body can be gutted out and no internal electronics contained. The vacuum/mecanical advance locking becomes a non-issue, and the traditional weak link - pickup (in the Marelli units) is not there.

Second, if you decide to go with a full distributorless ignition, the only thing you really have to do is add more 'teeth' to the front pulley.

Third, and the largest reason is that the 'trigger' components are separated from the 'distribute' components. In a traditional distributor, the 'trigger point' is a set angle relative to the rotor. Changing this relationship can be difficult and tricky and may need to be done to achieve the desired goal. If the trigger is outside of the distributor (down near the crank), it can be advance/retarded EASILY without a major teardown.

Now, back to why this may be important to you. When I last looked into mapped ignition using a distributor (a while back, granted) the trigger point had to be adjusted relative to the rotor by approx 40deg (going from memory here!).

The reason for this is 2 fold.
First, the method that MS uses to 'advance' or 'retard' the timing to an internal table is to delay the timing after the trigger is made. For example, the pickup triggers the ECU say 45deg BTDC, MS will calculate how much time '35deg' represents at the given rpm to send out an output signal to the coil at 10deg BTDC. MS needs a certain amount of time to determine the offset. Second, the first couple ignition pulses when starting your car need to be at a 'known' point so MS can approximate ignition timing until it can determine engine revolution speed.

All of that seemed WAY too complicated compared to the EDIS system for me.

I'm sure this is a poor explanation of how MS handles this, but it used to be very well documented in the MegaManual. It also may have changed since I looked at it, but I don't think it would have changed all that much. So, before you make any modifications to your distributor, read and re-read the documentation to fully understand what modifications it takes.

[John Allen]

HEI is a shorthand for GM's "High Energy Ignition' system that they have had for years!!! FIAT (Marelli) licensed a version of it for use in the 124/131/Beta ignition, and in fact the module under the aluminum finned housing is usually stamped "GM".


Davidb here D.J.. Thanks for the response. My system
is stock so I don't know what an HEI system is. Sounds
as though you are really into something w/your convert.
Almost "Back To The Future"? All luck intended.

[Will]

Right on, DJ- VR sensors when used in other applications like rev and event counters, etc. don't have a "polarity". Well, the magnet itself does but it's inconsequential.

I think I'm slowly forgetting most of what I know- is that aging?

[DJ]

I think I'm slowly forgetting most of what I know- is that aging?

You betcha. I don't know much anyway so I don't have very far to go...

[DJ]

Any Megasquirt installation requires at least 2-3 new relays and several new fuses.

As most of you already know, I'm kinda retentive about having things neat an clean in my engine bay. :rolleyes: I hate having relays and fuses all over the engine bay and wanted to have a nice, neat, central location for all of my engine bay electrical terminations. Hence, I've spent a lot of time and effort finding and deciding upon a fuse/relay box solution. I decided on matching fuse and relay boxes that can be connected to create a single unit. These are the units I bought from Vehicle Wiring Products (http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php) in the UK. They are branded as "MTA" but there are identical units available from Susquehanna MotorSports (www.rallylights.com) that are supposedly made by Hella. I actually found it cheaper to buy the units from the UK.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/bad8e1179991240526a18dd1ef2b7dfc_223.jpg

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/7ce80e99647fc92444bc86c1d9c5b91f_222.jpg

I also wanted to mount the fuses and relays in the "normal" relay location in the front right corner of the bay. However, the existing mounting plate wasn't adequate for the fuse/relay box I have so I decided to make a new one. Here's a picture of the old and new mounting plates and a picture of the new fuse/relay box mounted on the new plate.

I also plan to mount the calibration switch and LED for the Innovate Wideband O2 sensor in this plate.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/3197c122656a9133b279058486dde24a_224.jpg

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/bd567840a09f992f7e33c8db4afb815a_225.jpg

[John Allen]

VERY nice DJ! I like the parts and your remanufacture of the 'AC' bracket.

BTW, I did a little checking into the need to reclock the distributor for spark control and it appears that the newer MSII code doesn't need it. All of my experience is based on the older MSI hardware using the "MSnExtra" code.

[DJ]

VERY nice DJ! I like the parts and your remanufacture of the 'AC' bracket.

Thanks for the kind words, John. Started wiring up the fuses and relays tonight. I think I'm going to like this setup a lot.

I think I'm going to paint the bracket with black wrinkle paint. I would do red but I don't have any and don't want to wait to order it in.

BTW, I did a little checking into the need to reclock the distributor for spark control and it appears that the newer MSII code doesn't need it. All of my experience is based on the older MSI hardware using the "MSnExtra" code.

Excellent. That's makes it easier (and I need easy). Thanks again!

[DJ]

I asked this earlier but it was buried in another post.

Does it matter how the injectors are banked? I had 1 and 3 together and 2 and 4 together in my diagram but it would make for somewhat neater wiring if I put 1 and 2 together and 3 and 4 together.

The MegaManual seems to indicate that it doesn't matter but I'm still not clear on this.

[John Allen]

doesn't matter.... I did 1-4 & 2-3 in case there was any development in the future where timed banking would benefit me.

The kits I built in the Bosch box 'banked' them up like they appeared to be in the Bosch ECU (since confirmed that there is NO banking in a Bosch - single output stage).

I DO run 'alternating' injection on mine to reduce the pressure fluctuations in the rail - though I really doubt it helps significantly - given that Bosch didn't do it.

-John

I asked this earlier but it was buried in another post.

Does it matter how the injectors are banked? I had 1 and 3 together and 2 and 4 together in my diagram but it would make for somewhat neater wiring if I put 1 and 2 together and 3 and 4 together.

The MegaManual seems to indicate that it doesn't matter but I'm still not clear on this.

[DJ]

As always, thanks, John.

Not sure what you mean by "alternating" injection. Probably haven't read far enough in the manual yet. Starting to get lost a little in all this.

[DJ]

In case anyone happened to download my previous wiring diagram, I've revised it to correct one mistake and change a couple of other things.

The files have been updated in my album and on the PDF file attached to my earlier post.

[DJ]

This should be acceptable.

Now I just need to get the harnesses wired up to them.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/c85a1e4e5ceaa3fa5e8680e928a04898_228.jpg

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/50ad3d5ae81b473adbe44507ec26f9c4_227.jpg

[DJ]

When I first decided to install the Megasquirt system on Lucia I quickly decided that I would use a stepper idle air controller (IAC) instead of the PWM controller or the old Bosch idle air valve so that I would have much more precise idle control.

As my throttle-body has no provisions for mounting an IAC I decided to buy the 'DarkStar' Custom IAC Body (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/custom-idle-air-control-body-for-use-with-jeep-40l-iac-valve-p-69.html) from DIY Autotune (http://www.diyautotune.com) (my Megasquirt vendor, who I highly recommend).

It's a very nice unit. However, is a pretty big@ss (and not so pretty) chunk of solid aluminum and I've been agonizing over where to mount the darn thing. There's no readily available or obvious spot to mount it in the Scorpion's engine bay.

After a bit measuring and eyeballing I suddenly realized that my snazzy new relay/fuse block bracket is the perfect place for it. It's out of sight and I won't have to extend the harness to reach it in some other location.

Now I'm even happier. If only the ECU mounting was this easy. :(

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/87366cdbb4a3d386123b0b1b2e0d2ddf_236.jpg

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/da482c0a69d5a4748c3c70295c6b96c1_237.jpg

[John Allen]

DJ

I don't use an idle compensator on mine at all. It idles very well and steady when warm. I do have to feather the throttle for the first couple blocks (maybe a couple minutes total) when cold. I always felt it was more complex than a FIAT needs.

I may add a Bosch type AAV in the future if I feel the need.

[DJ]

Yeah. I know that Scott H doesn't run one either. However, idle has always been a problem for me here at Mile High so I really wanted a decent solution. It gets even worse when changing elevations a lot in the mountains. The elevation here really seems to make a difference.

It's already built into the MS II system so I figure I might as well use it. Especially with my plans to complete the new AC system later. Besides it seems easy enough to set up that even my little pea brain can handle it.

[DJ]

All along with my Megasquirt conversion I've planned to use the stock Beta intake plenum and fuel rail.

This week I finally got to spend a good bit of quality time in the garage and am nearly done with the new wiring harness. On Friday I finally got to the point of re-installing the plenum and yesterday was ready to install the fuel rail and injectors.

However, I immediately realized that I had completely forgotten about the extra nipple on the fuel rail for the cold-start injector feed. As I don't need a cold-start injector and will be using it's port on the throttle-body for my intake air temperature sensor, I realized that I need to figure out a way to plug the extra fuel rail port.

My first thought was to just clamp on a vacuum port cap but I then realized that wasn't at all a good idea (unless I actually wanted to have an engine fire). Then I thought I could just thread in a screw with a little sealant to plug it off but realized it would still look a bit "unfinished" that way.

After a I little more head scratching :scratch: I decided to just cut it off with the Dremel, tap it and plug it with a nice looking button-head screw. Here's the pictures of the outcome.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/b33ab9e4fcc1bd3aa3337394cdb53abd_249.jpg

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/52daf0832719a31b5ce2f453f71959a9_250.jpg

[Will]

DJ;

That works but IMO you might consider a schrader valve and cap, having a test port is a nice feature. I ended up silver soldering one on when I did the Weber BB setup. Stsandard gear in "modern" FI cars.

[John Allen]

I like Will's suggestion.

I put a liquid filled fuel pressure gauge on mine (when I had the original fuel rail) with a short hose. Just make sure it can handle the pressure range of FI.

[DJ]

DJ;

That works but IMO you might consider a schrader valve and cap, having a test port is a nice feature. I ended up silver soldering one on when I did the Weber BB setup. Stsandard gear in "modern" FI cars.

That's definitely a great idea but it's a little too late at the moment. Later I expect to replace the Beta fuel rail and injectors with a different setup and modern injectors. I'll keep it in mind for then.

[DJ]

Finally got the injectors, TPS and IAT sensor wired up. Now everything left to do is at the relay/fuse box end of the loom.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/7a6326005c1e775819811e3afd603e6b_251.jpg

[John Allen]

Nice wiring, nice......... say, that TPS looks really nice as well!

Finally got the injectors, TPS and IAT sensor wired up. Now everything is at the relay/fuse box end of the loom.

[DJ]

Thanks. That TPS is definitely sweet. Looks almost as though it was made specifically for the Weber TB doesn't it? ;)

[Scott H]

DJ,

Looking good!

GM uses a schrader valve on their fuel rails as a test location for fuel pressure. It is the same thread and shape as an A/C gauge fitting. I want to say it is an AN -4 but not completely sure.

I went to the local u-pull-it yard and found some that were threaded into the rail. The newer cars I saw had this brazed onto a steel rail but with a little poking around I found a couple threaded ones. I think I still have one extra if you want it.

I have an old R-12 A/C gauge set that I use the low side to now check fuel pressure with.

This pressure tap is on the lower part of the fuel rail between #1 and #2.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/p1010002.JPG

>Scott

[DJ]

DJ,

Looking good!

GM uses a schrader valve on their fuel rails as a test location for fuel pressure. It is the same thread and shape as an A/C gauge fitting. I want to say it is an AN -4 but not completely sure.

I went to the local u-pull-it yard and found some that were threaded into the rail. The newer cars I saw had this brazed onto a steel rail but with a little poking around I found a couple threaded ones. I think I still have one extra if you want it.

Thanks, Scott!

If you have a spare valve I'd love to have it.

[DJ]

More dumb questions from the MS neophyte.

I'm installing an idle air controller in my system. In light of this, is there any real reason to continue to have the manual idle adjustment?

Also, the custom IAC mounting block I bought has barbed hose connections for both the intake and outlet. Does anyone think there's any real need to install some sort of filtration on the intake? It seems to me that I can just leave it open to air with no real problem.

[Scott H]

I'm installing an idle air controller in my system. In light of this, is there any real reason to continue to have the manual idle adjustment?

Yes, you should still keep it. You need to set the base idle as the lowest idle point, hot engine, A/C off, etc. The recovery of most idle control systems can lag behind the deceleration of the engine causing a stall. You really should not expect it to provide enough air to keep the engine running under all conditions. The fast idle system should be for just that, fast idle. You should still set your curb RPM with the traditional screw on the throttle stop. Maybe a touch below but there still needs to be air flowing through the throttle plate. This also helps with the feeling of a sticky throttle as you open it from idle.

Also, the custom IAC mounting block I bought has barbed hose connections for both the intake and outlet. Does anyone think there's any real need to install some sort of filtration on the intake? It seems to me that I can just leave it open to air with no real problem.

Can't you plumb it with a vacuum hose into to the filtered air between the air filter and the throttle body? I think you should filter it. One little spec of dirt on the valve and you will will have a high idle.

>Scott

[DJ]

Yes, you should still keep it.

Thanks. I suspected that was the answer but wasn't quite sure.

Can't you plumb it with a vacuum hose into to the filtered air between the air filter and the throttle body? I think you should filter it. One little spec of dirt on the valve and you will will have a high idle.

I could do this but would prefer not to run another hose all the way over there. Besides, I'll be making a custom connector hose to the filter and the only connection I plan to have in the tube is for the crankcase vent. I'd do without that connector if I could but I don't want to add yet another piece of apparatus to the mix just for that.

I'll research some other small filters that I can install out of the way near the IAC valve.

[Scott H]

You could use a small inline fuel filter on the vacuum hose and tuck it away somewhere. If not from a car from a motorcycle, etc.

I found the spare fuel pressure port I have. Can you send me your address.

>Scott

[DJ]

You could use a small inline fuel filter on the vacuum hose and tuck it away somewhere. If not from a car from a motorcycle, etc.

I found the spare fuel pressure port I have. Can you send me your address.

>Scott

That's pretty much what I was thinking. The IAC valve is tucked on the back of the new fuse/relay panel so the filter will be well hidden.

Address on it's way via email.

Thanks!

[DJ]

More dumb newbie questions.

Should the MAP vacuum line to the ECU be connected to one of the manifold vacuum ports or should it be connected to the old metered distributor advance vacuum port on the throttle-body? Or does it even matter?

I just want to make sure it won't suck the guts out of the MAP sensor if I hook it to the manifold port. :eek:

I've searched through all the Megasquirt documentation and can't seem to find this answer. It only refers to a "vacuum connection".

Thanks,

[Will]

MANIFOLD port! :)

[DJ]

MANIFOLD port! :)

BTW, Will, thanks for that. I was fairly certain that it was manifold (seeing as how MAP stands for Manifold Absolute Pressure) but after getting a look at that delicate-looking little MAP sensor, I just felt it prudent to ask.

[DJ]

Well, it looks like it's back to the narrow-band O2 sensor. The Innovate wide-band controller is apparently DOA and is being returned for replacement.

It wouldn't piss me off so much if the wires weren't already bound up inside the new harness. It's going to be a bitch to strip out and replace.

After reading through the literally thousands of complaints about DOA controllers, controllers that died after a few hundred miles, and ongoing problems with these units on their support forums, I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to reinstall it when it's returned. If anyone is interested in it, please send me a note.

On the positive side, nothing blew up when I powered up the new system! :cheers:

[HF Stinger]

I have an LC-1 that was DOA within minutes of firing up my car after the 034efi swap last year. I bought an LM-1 and it is a real trooper. They are SO robust and it has many capabilities beyond the LC-1.

I will be reinstalling the LC-1 once I get the 3" CAT installed since that has a bung on it. I will be running the LC-1 way down at the CAT driving the 034efi and the LM-1 up in the existing location for data logging and tuning purposes.

I hope the newest LC-1's have finally been fixed. I spoke to Innovate at SEMA last year and they have a look of shame in there eye as soon as you mention problems with the LC-1. It is an awesome product in theory, but they just weren't reliable enough.

[DJ]

Got the LC-1 wideband unbound from the harness and new wiring installed for the narrowband 02 sensor.

I now have most everything ready to start the engine but am stumped with building an ignition advance table. I've tried following the guidance in the MegaManual but it results in some really large advance numbers (60+?) at WOT.

Not sure what I'm missing or doing wrong. Does anyone have any tips for building this table? Or, even better, a workable table file I can import?

[John Allen]

I would start with a map that is based on the stock distributor curve listed in the service manual. You will have to take a best guess at how much of the vaccum advance us added to a particular kpa pressure.

I haven't forgotten about your email, I plan on getting back to you tonight with your other answers....
-John

Got the LC-1 wideband unbound from the harness and new wiring installed for the narrowband 02 sensor.

I now have most everything ready to start the engine but am stumped with building an ignition advance table. I've tried following the guidance in the MegaManual but it results in some really large advance numbers (60+?) at WOT.

Not sure what I'm missing or doing wrong. Does anyone have any tips for building this table? Or, even better, a workable table file I can import?

[DJ]

Thanks, John.

I'll see what I can come up with. I've reread the guidance several times and some other info as well so I think I see a couple areas where I wasn't correctly interpreting what they were saying.

I think I'm getting burned out on this and need to sleep on it.

Cheers,

[DJ]

OK, here's what I've ended up with so far. I made two maps and used an increase of 0.03° per 1 kPa reduction. MegaManual advises the use of 0.3° per 1 kPa reduction but that results in a really rapid advance which just doesn't seem right. I've included screen shots of each below and heartily invite any and all comments, suggestions, and criticism because i have no clue what I'm doing here. :confused:

Thoughts anyone?

The first map uses the stock Scorpion/Montecarlo curve using 28° degrees distributor advance + 10° static advance for 38° max advance. This curve results in max advance at 5,400 RPM at 100 kPa per the tech data manual.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/Stock_Curve.png

The second map uses the MegaManual guidance of having the max advance "all-in" by 3,000 RPM with a linear progression between idle and 3k.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/All-in_at_3100.png

[DJ]

A very long and strange weekend to be sure, but major progress was made.

On Saturday evening I finally had time to finalize setup and actually try to start the engine. FAIL! - My "new" Orbital gel-cell battery that I bought back in 2002 when I first got Lucia was too weak and apparently in need of replacement. So I shot over to Advance Auto and picked up a new red-top Optima. Got that installed and set it up on the charger to give it a good long charge.

Of course, Sunday was Easter so we had a lot to do in the morning and then went to the son's house for dinner. After we got home I went out and gave it a spin and she fired right up. Hallelujah! It's ALIIIVE!!!!!

Wow. Major tenseness relieved.

It seems somewhat appropriate that she was "resurrected" on Easter Sunday. Especially since I had joked with Scott H about that very thing when speaking with him on Saturday. I had my doubts it would actually happen that soon without first having to fix something I'd missed. But diligence and tetentiveness apparently pays off sometimes.

But then, things got all weird because our son called all freaked out because his girlfriend was suddenly in the hospital. In the end, everything and everyone is fine but we spent several hours in the ER last night.

This evening I should be able to get back out in the garage and get to tuning the new Megasquirt. I'll report back as progress is made.

[Scott H]

<snip> After we got home I went out and gave it a spin and she fired right up. Hallelujah! It's ALIIIVE!!!!!

Wow. Major tenseness relieved.

'told ya so...

See, was it that hard? THAT is what all of the work and attention to detail was for.

:cheers:

Scott

[John Allen]

WhooHoo! I'm glad to hear that it fired up! Now the fun begins - tuning!

Scott had a really nice time compared to what I had to go through, it sounds like the tuning methods in MS2 have progressed quite a bit over the MS1. You should be on the road in no time.

Keep us updated!
-John

[John Allen]

Come on DJ... any news to share? Did you get a drive in your car yet?????

[DJ]

Come on DJ... any news to share? Did you get a drive in your car yet?????

Not yet. It's been started twice but both times I got pulled away by emergencies before I could even set the static timing. Then, last weekend we had the big snow and I never got out to the garage at all.

Work has me busy most all day, every day but I've been been working on it in spurts during breaks between conference calls. Yesterday I finally got the ECU mounted behind the right footwell speaker and the harness tucked in nice and neat.

I also got the new rear & side panels in, the seat belts remounted, and the new engine cover release and cable installed. That's a story in itself that I'll share later. I still need to thank Will for his help in that effort but he'll be disappointed when I tell him the story. :(

Tomorrow I should get the seats back in, and if I can dodge a meeting or two, maybe I'll even get her fired up and try to get some tuning done.

I'll keep you posted.

[DJ]

I drove my car today!

Finally got some time away from the desk AND some decent weather so I got out into the garage and finally got the IAC setup and working correctly. It's still running rich at idle but it starts and idles nicely now.

So then I realized I was out of excuses and had to take her out for some logging runs around the neighborhood. It's still somewhat sloppy and the clutch and shifter need some adjustment but it was such a joy to be tooling around in my car again.

Tomorrow I'll do some longer logging runs and then use them to adjust the maps.

Oh yeah, the new VX gearbox is sweet, too!

[DJ]

Well, I thought I'd catch up on some of my posts to this thread so I don't get any farther behind.

Here's some pictures and commentary of some of the process I've been through to get to where I am with the project.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/sensor_measurement.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8391)

Determining the IAT and CLT sensor curves. The procedure for doing this is very straightforward and can be found here (http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/iat_clt_resistance_curve_calculation.htm).


http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/fuse-relay_connection.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8389)

New connector for the new fuse/relay box. I initially tried to wire everything up with WeatherPak connectors but it quickly got messy because they don't have enough connectors. I found a place that sells OEM-style connectors and was able to wire up the new box with a single connector.


http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/stripping_out.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8393)

Stripping out the old emissions wiring and rebundling/resheathing the engine bay harness.


http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/wiring_hell.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8394)

The poor car looked like hell for a while, prompting one sweet old lady to stop by and ask "Is that an electric car?"

[DJ]

These pictures show how the ECU is mounted and it's harness is run.


http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/ecu-mounted.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8388)

ECU mounted in the right-side footwell behind the speaker. There's plenty of room, even with speakers with VERY large magnets.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/harness-run.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8390)

ECU harness run alongside the battery cable. This results in a VERY slight bump in the carpet but most people will never notice it.


http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/939/medium/ecu-harness.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8387)

ECU harness after being run into the right-side engine bay behind the new fuse/relay box.

[John Allen]

Hey! That ECU location looks familiar!! (same as mine...)

I'm not sure if I should ask this, but how large are your speaker magnets? The ONLY thing that gave me pause for this location was whether or not the speaker magnet could harm (read - erase) the eprom. I don't think the chip is that type and that the ECU enclosure is well grounded, I think you should be OK. Not sure if you can add a 'bucking' magnet similar to home theater center channel speakers to sheild the ECU even more.

Congrats on actually DRIVING your car! It has to feel pretty good!

[DJ]

You can see a picture of them here (http://lancisti.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2898) in my thread about speakers.

If the EPROM was a magnetic storage device I'd be concerned but they don't store data that way. They can only be erased like that by exposure to a really strong UV light AFAIK.

[John Allen]

that's what I thought as well.....

[DJ]

Spent about 20 minutes driving around the neighborhood and logging data at various speeds, RPMs, and throttle positions. It drove OK but was rich and pretty sluggish overall.

Came back to the garage, read the log into MegaLogViewer, loaded the MSQ file, analyzed the VE, saved and burned the new resultant MSQ into the ECU, then went for another drive.

To quote the tiny-hineys at the mall, "Oh...My...God!"

The engine has now come alive. Much more so than in any other iteration or configuration I've had to date. It runs and accelerates really smoothly and now will rev past 6,000 RPM so quickly and smoothly it blows me away.

More tuning to do but THIS was a MAJOR step forward today.

Got the Innovate Wideband back from repair today so I'll wire it back in (with a quick-disconnect) and really get to tuning. (Assuming the damn thing works now.)

Going to Ohio for a wedding this weekend so it'll have to wait until next week but I'm really pumped now.

[Darren]

Well done DJ, excellent news and great to hear that all seems to be with your own tuning without having to look at spending time at a rolling road. I'm keeping fingers crossed that mine proceeds as smoothly and I hope I don't have a dead LC-1 as well!

Still deciding on a location for the ECU - right hand footwell is not so good as I'm there, as well as a speaker and the mechanism for opening the luggage cover. The other side already has the main fuse boxes and another speaker of course, but I think there is scope to site it up and out of the way - possibly behind or above the glovebox. The only thing then is the length of run to the new fuse/relay box as it will either travel down the left hand side of the car to the engine bay and then move across the car, like the existing engine loom, or run under the dash and up the right hand side and into the engne compartment on that side. Either way, it's a long run and there's got to be somewhere else it can be 'hidden' without putting it under a seat where it could feasibly get wet.

Well done though!

[DJ]

Still deciding on a location for the ECU - right hand footwell is not so good as I'm there, as well as a speaker and the mechanism for opening the luggage cover.

You'll be surprised if you get down there and just try it. The ECU will EASILY fit in behind the speaker and latch mechanism. And I now have some large speakers with very large magnets in there. I could not figure out an acceptable location or mounting method around the glovebox.

[DJ]

Finally back to tuning after a long weekend away. As previously mentioned, I got the Innovate LC-1 back from "repair" and have learned a couple of lessons I thought worth sharing.



The LC-1 Wideband wasn't DOA after all, so I take back any nasty things I may have said about their product quality. It turns out that I wasn't getting power to it properly when trying to initially set it up and calibrate the sensor. The Megasquirt manual shows the O2 sensor as being wired to the same relay as the fuel pump and this is exactly how I did my wiring. The problem in calibrating the LC-1 arises because the ECU only allows the pump to run for a few seconds, then shuts it off until the engine is started. This is fine for normal use but you need to connect it to constant power to calibrate the unit and the sensor.
All that said, Innovate's "support" is definitely not up to my level of expectation. They were quick enough to issue a RMA to return the unit for warranty work but after it had been in their shop for 2 weeks without hearing from them I contacted them to inquire. They said it had just been received that day and would take another 5-7 business days to be returned. This naturally got under my skin because I had a delivery receipt with a signature from 2 weeks prior. Then, 11 business days after my inquiry I received the unit back with no report whatsoever on what was done to test it, nor were there any results as to what they found. It took me another couple of hours of re-installation and testing to finally determine what was wrong.
When I first started tuning I was using the MSTweak3000 software (http://www.megamanual.com/files/software/MST3000.zip). It seems to work OK but is a bit weird because it requires that you save the datalog in .XLS format instead of being able to directly read the .MSQ file from Megatune. The first couple of data logging runs seemed to work OK, but then the Megatune software wouldn't save the .XLS file correctly anymore. Getting a bit frustrated, I did some online research in the MSEFI.com forums and learned that the MegaLogViewer software (http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MegaLogViewer/download/) now does analysis and most people seem to think it does a better job than either MSTweak or the built-in Auto-tune feature in MegaSquirt. So far it's done a really nice job and the car runs better after every logging run. There are a couple of other pieces of software specifically for tuning with a wideband controller so I'll report on them as soon as I get time to check them out.

[Darren]

You'll be surprised if you get down there and just try it. The ECU will EASILY fit in behind the speaker and latch mechanism. And I now have some large speakers with very large magnets in there. I could not figure out an acceptable location or mounting method around the glovebox.

Hi DJ,

I will give it a go as the other locations either require significant fabircation or a very long run of cable. I am replacing the main battery cable for a more modern item, so I'm hoping that it will lay nicely in the groove.

[Darren]

Finally back to tuning after a long weekend away. As previously mentioned, I got the Innovate LC-1 back from "repair" and have learned a couple of lessons I thought worth sharing.

<<snip>>

Excellent news - and very useful information there DJ. I wait with interest for the next update, and hope I won't be too far behind in getting my installation sorted. By the sound of it, the base software and additional programs are enough to get up and running without the need to spend time and money at a rolling road?

Great work!

[John Allen]

DJ

Remember that Darren is in the UK and the trunk release is on the 'right' side of the car (is that right? the UK cars ahd the release on their driver's side?). It could get in the way. I suppose he could use the 'left' side and use longer wires.

You'll be surprised if you get down there and just try it. The ECU will EASILY fit in behind the speaker and latch mechanism. And I now have some large speakers with very large magnets in there. I could not figure out an acceptable location or mounting method around the glovebox.

[DJ]

DJ

Remember that Darren is in the UK and the trunk release is on the 'right' side of the car (is that right? the UK cars ahd the release on their driver's side?). It could get in the way. I suppose he could use the 'left' side and use longer wires.

Yup. I remembered. But I've recently had my left-side panel out and I'm pretty darn sure that the ECU will tuck in there just fine unless the latch mounting somehow ISN'T a mirror-image of those on LHD cars.

The only real issues are that the metal panel mount is about an inch or so deep and the cable protrudes into the space a bit further. The mount should clear just fine and the cable immediately turns upwards and should be far enough away from the side to clear so it really shouldn't be a problem either.

As always, though, I have been known to be wrong. :rolleyes:

[DJ]

By the sound of it, the base software and additional programs are enough to get up and running without the need to spend time and money at a rolling road?

Absolutely! Especially with the wideband controller. At this point I don't intend to use a dyno unless I find that I can't get something working to my satisfaction. If I was building a racer I probably would but I'm only looking for a great road driver and so far, it's better than it's ever been.

[DJ]

One thing I forgot to mention previously is the use of the two analog outputs from the Innovate LC-1. There is a yellow wire (Analog 1) and a brown wire (Analog 2). Analog 1 is pre-programmed to simulate a narrowband output and Analog 2 is pre-programmed as a wideband output. You are supposed to be able to swap the programming to suit your needs but many folks have apparently had problems getting Analog 1 to output a proper wideband signal.

The lesson here is to use the brown wire (Analog 2) for output to your Megasquirt ECU to save yourself any potential grief with setting up the system.

I've updated my wiring diagram to reflect this and will get it re-posted to my previous message in this thread soon.

[Scott H]

It turns out that I wasn't getting power to it properly when trying to initially set it up and calibrate the sensor. The Megasquirt manual shows the O2 sensor as being wired to the same relay as the fuel pump and this is exactly how I did my wiring. The problem in calibrating the LC-1 arises because the ECU only allows the pump to run for a few seconds, then shuts it off until the engine is started. This is fine for normal use but you need to connect it to constant power to calibrate the unit and the sensor.

I have a small draw string tool bag for my LC-1. It has a box with a switch, an LED, and leads that get connected to the test terminal and ground. Pushing the button grounds the test lead for calibration while the LED is used for diagnosis. I also have a jumper wire with the proper terminals so I can jumper across the fuel pump/WBO2 relay to run it all of the time. I also have a remote starter switch with two male terminals on that I can use for the LC-1 or the starter relay.


Mine has been running almost a year now and there are still a couple spots where I should go back and make some slight tuning changes to. Not major ones and nothing to make me damage anything. Getting it exactly perfect takes a bit of time.

Your progress sounds great!

Scott

[DJ]

One thing I've noticed since getting Lucia back on the road is that the humming of the MasterCraft FI fuel pump from Autozone (mounted on rubber isolators in the standard position on the firewall) is now quite noticeable.

Jim Keller had indicated that these pumps are generally noisier than the Bosch pumps but I never really noticed it before. But now it's definitely more noticeable and I know it will eventually bug me a lot.

Accordingly, I'll be looking for a new fuel pump soon. The Bosch pumps are available but somewhat expensive. Walbro pumps are also available for a bit less than the Bosch but I have no experience with them. I'm not too concerned with the price because, mostly, I want to find the quietest pump possible.

Does anyone have any feedback on either the Bosch or Walbro pumps? Perhaps there is also a good Carter pump that is nice and quiet and meets the needs of the Beta FI system?

I haven't really looked around a lot yet but any good sources for best price would also be much appreciated.

[Will]

One thing I've noticed since getting Lucia back on the road is that the humming of the MasterCraft FI fuel pump from Autozone (mounted on rubber isolators in the standard position on the firewall) is now quite noticeable.

Jim Keller had indicated that these pumps are generally noisier than the Bosch pumps but I never really noticed it before. But now it's definitely more noticeable and I know it will eventually bug me a lot.

Accordingly, I'll be looking for a new fuel pump soon. The Bosch pumps are available but somewhat expensive. Walbro pumps are also available for a bit less than the Bosch but I have no experience with them. I'm not too concerned with the price because, mostly, I want to find the quietest pump possible.

Does anyone have any feedback on either the Bosch or Walbro pumps? Perhaps there is also a good Carter pump that is nice and quiet and meets the needs of the Beta FI system?

I haven't really looked around a lot yet but any good sources for best price would also be much appreciated.

IMO the roller-vane Bosch pumps are hard to beat, but if you have a pump with the nylon shell it might help to put a couple of tight wraps of the aluminun (foil type) duct tape around the body of it to quiet it down.

[DJ]

IMO the roller-vane Bosch pumps are hard to beat, but if you have a pump with the nylon shell it might help to put a couple of tight wraps of the aluminun (foil type) duct tape around the body of it to quiet it down.

It's already clamped in a rubber sleeve so I'm not sure how much quieter I can get it.

Thanks for the feedback, Will. I've not personally used a Bosch FI pump so I have no basis of comparison. Most folks say they are really quiet, though so that's probably the direction I'll take unless I can find something that's comparable or better.

[Darren]

Why not just change the location of the pump off the firewall to say the crossmember? Cheaper than a new pump and may solve
The problem?

[davidb]

You're in the same "boat" nee Lancia predicament I am D.J..
Among countless issues w/my '82 LBZ, partially roadworthy,
is that that damn AutoZone MasterCraft fuel pump I have.
Damn thing whirrrrz's & buzzze's like crazy. Not fun. I.A.P.
has Bosch F.I. fuel pumps in stock. Supposedly the "real" deal.
Part #90266 = $298 = OUCH! Me-thinks it's either I.A.P. or
Obert. Sorry for the $$$$-input, that's all I know as yet. Luck!

[Scott H]

My Walbro on the crossmember is quiet. I do hear it prime at key-on but once the engine is running it is nearly impossible to hear it.

I would relocate yours first. Anything that makes noise mounted to sheetmetal will be amplified.

>Scott

[DJ]

My Walbro on the crossmember is quiet. I do hear it prime at key-on but once the engine is running it is nearly impossible to hear it.

I would relocate yours first. Anything that makes noise mounted to sheetmetal will be amplified.

>Scott

Time to update this thread a bit after a wonderful vacation at the beach and many weeks of being too busy to post anything significant.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that the pump is having some issues. It's now taken to making other odd noises at random moments. This thing is wrapped in rubber and is also mounted on rubber mounts so it shouldn't be making as much noise as it is. And as I noted earlier, it wasn't noticeable when new. Besides, the Carter pump I bought during my short-lived retro carb phase was mounted in the same way and was completely silent so my expectations are high.

I've obtained an NOS Bosch pump and will install it sometime soon. The current pump has a "limited lifetime warranty" so I'll get it replaced and will keep it as a spare. FWIW, the new versions of this pump offered by AutoZone only comes with a 1 year warranty.

[DJ]

After untold numbers of "tuning" sessions with my Megasquirt I've finally figured out what the biggest problem was. The MS2 version of the ECU has a feature call "Automatic Mixture Control" which will constantly adjust your VE table to your AFR table and write it to flash memory. Apparently, I had this feature turned on in my ECU.

What this means is that I was attempting to tune against a constantly moving target. Talk about frustrating. :confused:

Other than this obvious problem, the biggest problem I've had in tuning is that all the available tuning software (and the built-in tuning features) assumes that you have a valid AFR table to tune against. The software compares measured AFR against the target AFR in the AFR table and adjusts the VE table values to meet that target value.

Unfortunately, there's not a lot of helpful guidance to help you build an AFR table. All the Megasquirt manual gives you is some general target ranges for "cruising" and "high/low load" areas of the table. But with a totally custom installation, a brand new transmission with a completely different RPM profile, and a max kPa of only about 84 because of the ASL elevation here (as opposed to 100 kPa at sea level), I was struggling to get to something that worked adequately.

But today I took a different approach. Firstly, I realized that it doesn't really matter if your AFR table is absolutely precise as long as you can figure out how to adjust your VE table to make the car drive well. Then I collected a long driving log in MS Excel format and manually analyzed the measured AFR against the target AFR to determine the average variance in each kPa and RPM bin. This variance was then applied against the VE table values in the corresponding kPa and RPM bins to create a base VE table to work with. I found this new VE table to be a much better starting point than the one I had been working with.

Then I drove around for about an hour with one eye on the tuning graph and would stop every so often and manually adjust the VE in areas where the car stumbled or was weak on power. Then, when I got home, I manually smoothed out the lines and vertices on the tuning graph. So finally, I have a car that drives really nicely and has good power where I need it.

I know that I'll still be tweaking the map more as I move forward, but for once I feel like I've at least partially mastered the tuning phase in this odyssey.

Onward! :cheers:

[Darren]

Congrats DJ and welcome back!! You know that you're gonna be the first point of reference for anyone else putting MS on their car now??:D

Do you have an AFR guage or were you driving around with a laptop on the seat across from you?