montecarlo braking problems

[gman]

hi guys wondering if you can help me. i was driving two days ago in my montecarlo and when i pushed brakes the car just pulled to the left hand side. i know that the monties brakes were never really any good. (mine also doesnt have a brake booster). could one of the calipers have siezed?

when i took the car today for a drive i had to stop the car with the hand brake, there was almost no brakes at all. i put in a newmaster cylinder about 1 year ago? can anyone tell me whats going on? thanks

[Darren]

Hi Gman,

Sounds very much as though you have a siezed calliper there. You mentioned changing the Master Cylinder - but how long since you drove it last? If it has been stood for a long time and you have not checked through everything, ie cleaned the calipers as well as the sliders, and possibly even changed the fluid - how long has that been in there?

More information needed - but welcome anyway - what you got and where you based??

Cheers

[DJ]

Welcome to Lancisit.net, gman!

I'd also suggest replacing all the flexible hoses to the calipers if that hasn't been done in recent memory.

They will look fine externally but can be completely collapsed internally.

[gman]

Hi Gman,

Sounds very much as though you have a siezed calliper there. You mentioned changing the Master Cylinder - but how long since you drove it last? If it has been stood for a long time and you have not checked through everything, ie cleaned the calipers as well as the sliders, and possibly even changed the fluid - how long has that been in there?

More information needed - but welcome anyway - what you got and where you based??

Cheers

hi guys thanks for the help.. really appreciate it

i also thought it was a seized caliper, but now would one siezed caliper cause the whole braking system of the car not to work? it will definatley pull to one side but cause the whole system to stop? is it possible?
anyways other than that the previous owner said to me he bleeds the brakes every month to get all the air out?!? and this was after the new master was put in. i drive the car every 2nd day or so..

im not sure if its worth it to fix the old calipers and or old braking system, or to replace it with a bmw brake system. the reason why id like to replace it is cause i have a turbo on the car, this is my next problem.

my montecarlo surely kicks but and at half a bar im getting 160 kw. the previos owner said at a full bar it really moved. kicking but it is one thing, but stoping before and not after the red light is another. the brakes definatly need to be upgraded. any suggestions?

i was honestly thinking about the old gstring M3 braking system, but i know that it has abs, is it possible to run it without the abs? and do you guys thinks it will work to stop me before and not after the red light without the abs?

another option was to use praggia 6 pot calipers at back and and 4 pot in front? i could get them second hand for a good price, but what do you guys suggest?

any problems you guys can see?

one other thing my monte has electric windows but the driverside windows gears thread has eventually worn out.. does any one have a spare or does the monte hospital have? i checked but couldnt find anything.. (attached photo)http://C:\Documents and Settings\User\My Documents\George\George N\My Pictures\Cars Lancia Montecarlo\23092008969

thanks allot guys

[Darren]

Hi Gman,

wow, I think you've opened a big can of worms there!! I would have to question why the previous owner was having to bleed the brakes every month??? That sounds like a pretty fundamental problem, which could be located in a number of areas - places to check
1. You said the servo had been disconnected - has it been physically removed or has the vacuum pipe simply been plugged, in which case the diaphragm could be letting in air.
2. Are you losing fluid?
3. As DJ mentioned - do you still have the original rubber flex hoses at each corner? If you do - get rid of them and get steel braided lines.
4. stuck callipers - check eack to ensure that the piston moves, the seals are intact and the caliper does move on the slider.

If you have a turbo fitted and rubbish brakes, I wouldn't drive it - it's not worth it mate. Especially if you plough into the back of someone, giving a far bigger repair bill than just your brakes.

Is you car series 1 or 2? Do you have the original disks, or have you at least got tar-ox items?

Changing the system in its entirety is a big subject and everyone has there own opinion. Transplanting a BMW ABS system leaving the ABS off is possible if you can fabricate everything up, but remember you'll be putting the brake system from a front engined/rear wheel drive car into a mid engine/rear wheel drive car. You'll need to fabricate the pedalbox, take the servo and master cylinder over and you'll still have to fabricate the hub carriers to accept the disks and callipers. You may also then have to consider bigger wheels - what wheels do you currently have? This is not a quick job.

Another option is to use an aftermarket master cylinder and pedal box - such as Tilton - and use different brakes. Ken Haven has used MR2 callipers on his car to good effect.

This side of the pond, there are off the shelf available callipers from high spec that have an integral mechanical handbrake as required for the MOT, and 4 pots available for the fronts. These callipers do not require the changing of the master cylinder and are calculated to keep the pedal travel to a minimum. The disks are uprated to vented items from a Fiat Coupe, but will require a minimum of 15" rims.

Unfortunately your attachment didn't work. You could try creating an album in the member's area on this site and uploading your pics. I'd love to see some of your car. Where are you based??

Shameless plug - have you looked at www.montecarlo.org.uk or considered joining the montecarlo consortium (nudge DJ!) - there's a wealth of knowledge on that forum too! :D Plenty spread throughout the globe as well as the UK and we have some great fun get togethers too!

Hope this helps - feel free to ask any more questions! :)

Cheers

[Allen Lofland]

If your interested in up grading your brakes on a Scorpion/Monte try http://www.midwest124.com/Whoa_Brakes.htm
I used Whoa Brakes on three cars and have been very happy with them. And I dont think you can beat the value.
Very well engineerd for our cars and they work.

[Darren]

Have they come up with a solution for the rear brakes yet? IIRC they only do the fronts, and if you're going to uprate the system, you may as well get both ends working together, especially with a turbo in the mix! ;o) I guess it depends on what usage the car gets and your budget of course.

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

Darren, are those steelbraided brakehoses a direct fit? Or do they need changing anything?

Cheers, Pieter

[DJ]

The Goodridge braided stainless lines (http://www.montehospital.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=27_34_36_37_39_41&products_id=814) sold by TMH are a direct fit.

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

Thanks DJ, just what i wanted to hear (next to exchange rate euro-pound :-)

[Darren]

never been a better time to buy mate - it's about 1:1 at the mo!!

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

never been a better time to buy mate - it's about 1:1 at the mo!!

Yeppie, i'm making up a special Montehospital wishlist right now. Although the S2 uprated brakesystem is still to expensive for me.

Cars like Delta Integrale or M3-E30 from the UK are getting interesting as well pricewise.

Cheers, Pieter

[Allen Lofland]

No "Solution" Required darren, the Whoa Brake system is balanced with the stock rears and works very well .I have done some very hard driving on Mountain Roads and had no fade. Lots of users with lots of respect for Jim Fierst's Engineering. . Again, I have used them on three cars. My Scorp was not Turbo but it was way not stock iether :)

[Darren]

Has Midwest taken over production of these kits now? The link you sent is for the fiat 124, which is a completely different set up. I'm sure that there used to be a specific kit for the Scorp/monte, which seems to have disappeared - unless the x1/9 is the same kit?

I certainly not questioning Jim Fierst's knowledge or the product he produced. It does depend which side of the pond you're on though - 650 bucks at today's rates plus carriage and VAT probably going to work out the same in pounds as the dollar price. If you're this side of the pond then the Hi-Spec is a cheaper alternative - or you could buy 4 calipers for the same amount, more or less! ;o) Granted you will have to get the brackets made up - but you can get blanks which fit the calipers and just get the rest drilled up. Certainly cheaper if you just go with the fronts. There has been a lot of discussion on this topic in the Consortium forum.

Great that there are so many different options depending on your budget, requirements and needs.

Cheers

[Jim Fierst]

Just to set the record straight... When I sold the WHOA Brakes company this past summer it was divided between the two separate Midwest companies. Midwest 124 got the 124 and 131 part of the business while the X1/9 ,Scorpion , Monte S-1 and Fiat 128 was purchased by Matt at www.midwest-x19.com He had components in stock for all the above models. Remember that the WHOA kits only fit the S1 Monte and not the S2. Hope this helps.

[gman]

Hi Gman,

wow, I think you've opened a big can of worms there!! I would have to question why the previous owner was having to bleed the brakes every month??? That sounds like a pretty fundamental problem, which could be located in a number of areas - places to check
1. You said the servo had been disconnected - has it been physically removed or has the vacuum pipe simply been plugged, in which case the diaphragm could be letting in air.
2. Are you losing fluid?
3. As DJ mentioned - do you still have the original rubber flex hoses at each corner? If you do - get rid of them and get steel braided lines.
4. stuck callipers - check eack to ensure that the piston moves, the seals are intact and the caliper does move on the slider.

If you have a turbo fitted and rubbish brakes, I wouldn't drive it - it's not worth it mate. Especially if you plough into the back of someone, giving a far bigger repair bill than just your brakes.

Is you car series 1 or 2? Do you have the original disks, or have you at least got tar-ox items?

Changing the system in its entirety is a big subject and everyone has there own opinion. Transplanting a BMW ABS system leaving the ABS off is possible if you can fabricate everything up, but remember you'll be putting the brake system from a front engined/rear wheel drive car into a mid engine/rear wheel drive car. You'll need to fabricate the pedalbox, take the servo and master cylinder over and you'll still have to fabricate the hub carriers to accept the disks and callipers. You may also then have to consider bigger wheels - what wheels do you currently have? This is not a quick job.

Another option is to use an aftermarket master cylinder and pedal box - such as Tilton - and use different brakes. Ken Haven has used MR2 callipers on his car to good effect.

This side of the pond, there are off the shelf available callipers from high spec that have an integral mechanical handbrake as required for the MOT, and 4 pots available for the fronts. These callipers do not require the changing of the master cylinder and are calculated to keep the pedal travel to a minimum. The disks are uprated to vented items from a Fiat Coupe, but will require a minimum of 15" rims.

Unfortunately your attachment didn't work. You could try creating an album in the member's area on this site and uploading your pics. I'd love to see some of your car. Where are you based??

Shameless plug - have you looked at www.montecarlo.org.uk (http://www.montecarlo.org.uk) or considered joining the montecarlo consortium (nudge DJ!) - there's a wealth of knowledge on that forum too! :D Plenty spread throughout the globe as well as the UK and we have some great fun get togethers too!

Hope this helps - feel free to ask any more questions! :)

Cheers


hi darren

i also dont understand why the previos owner had to bleed the brakes every month, but i loved the montecarlo from when i saw it and bought it anyways. from small ive loved lancia and i wasnt going to let this montecarlo slip away.

1) sorry darren i made a mistake i ment to say the master cylinder(distributes the brake fluid to calipers) was replaced with a new one from the monte hospital not the servo

2)I am not losing any fluid

3)i do have the origainal hoses as dj said ... will definatley replace them..

4) im not sure which series came out without a brake booster. but mine doesnt have a brake booster.i have the original discs with 17 inch mags on. Are those after market brake system /servo/cylinder that kev haven uses availible in south africa?

thanks for all the help, im not taking chances drivng the car till the brakes are done properly;)

and what do you think about the praggia calipers?

thanks again for all the help...

[gman]

Just to set the record straight... When I sold the WHOA Brakes company this past summer it was divided between the two separate Midwest companies. Midwest 124 got the 124 and 131 part of the business while the X1/9 ,Scorpion , Monte S-1 and Fiat 128 was purchased by Matt at www.midwest-x19.com (http://www.midwest-x19.com) He had components in stock for all the above models. Remember that the WHOA kits only fit the S1 Monte and not the S2. Hope this helps.

hi Jim thanks for the help

so this whoa kits will fit the montecarlo directly without having to have to change the master and and brackets? my montecarlo has no brake booster so will that make it a series one or two?

so jim did you start the company whoa? those brakes looks nice! are parts easily availble incase anything goes wrong ? do the bring those brakes ro south africa..


thanks allot

[gman]

Have they come up with a solution for the rear brakes yet? IIRC they only do the fronts, and if you're going to uprate the system, you may as well get both ends working together, especially with a turbo in the mix! ;o) I guess it depends on what usage the car gets and your budget of course.


hi darren when you say "have they come up with a solution for the rear brakes yet" which company are you talking about ? midwest? sorry i lost track

thanks a llot:)

[Darren]

hi darren

i also dont understand why the previos owner had to bleed the brakes every month, but i loved the montecarlo from when i saw it and bought it anyways. from small ive loved lancia and i wasnt going to let this montecarlo slip away.

1) sorry darren i made a mistake i ment to say the master cylinder(distributes the brake fluid to calipers) was replaced with a new one from the monte hospital not the servo

2)I am not losing any fluid

3)i do have the origainal hoses as dj said ... will definatley replace them..

4) im not sure which series came out without a brake booster. but mine doesnt have a brake booster.i have the original discs with 17 inch mags on. Are those after market brake system /servo/cylinder that kev haven uses availible in south africa?

thanks for all the help, im not taking chances drivng the car till the brakes are done properly;)

and what do you think about the praggia calipers?

thanks again for all the help...

Hi again Gman,

Can't say I blame you mate - I wouldn't be without my Monte and I've loved all on the Lancias I've had. Weird on the bleeding - what condition are the tubes that run from the reservoirs to the master cylinders? I hope they were changed at the same time as the master cylinder, but given that you still have the original caliper hoses, then maybe not.

Sounds like you have a series 2 chap - is there a one piece panel that runs across the back of the car with Lancia on one side and Montecarlo on the other? If so, then you won't be able to go with the Whoa front brakes.

Tilton brake pedal/master cylinder should be available to you wherever you are. He uses MR2 series 2 turbo calipers and disks with some fabrication. The rears disks are series 1 fronts to give vented all round. You can see pics and more ingenuity in his album - look at the menu up on the left and under old photo albums - member galleries - Ken H

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/572/thumbs/pedals2.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1115)

Hope this helps and good luck with whatever direction you go!

[Darren]

hi darren when you say "have they come up with a solution for the rear brakes yet" which company are you talking about ? midwest? sorry i lost track

thanks a llot:)

Hi again Gman - I was talking about the Whoa Brakes, which are front only and only suitable for a series 1, which I believe your car isn't I'm afraid.

No probs mate - sorry never heard of praggia calipers - I guess the main thing is the piston size and whether they'll fit?

Cheers

[DJ]

Sounds like you have a series 2 chap - is there a one piece panel that runs across the back of the car with Lancia on one side and Montecarlo on the other? If so, then you won't be able to go with the Whoa front brakes.

Other possible ways to tell an S2:


Spare tire bolted down instead of held by rubber straps (but could have been updated)
Air filter box mounted on rear deck instead of by fuel tank (likely changed with turbo installation)
Rubber gasket under side Pininfarina badges. (Also could have been replaced, though.)

[gman]

ok thanks guys for all the trouble..

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

The Goodridge braided stainless lines (http://www.montehospital.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=27_34_36_37_39_41&products_id=814) sold by TMH are a direct fit.

There seem to be some suppliers on Ebay selling complete (so 4 for 1 car) Goodridge braided hoses for 47 UK pounds? TMH ask about 100 UKP.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290247275494

Can someone shed a light on differences in Tar-Ox discs?

TMH sell Groove-40, on Ebay i see "Sports Japan" and "G88".

T.i.a.

[Darren]

There seem to be some suppliers on Ebay selling complete (so 4 for 1 car) Goodridge braided hoses for 47 UK pounds? TMH ask about 100 UKP.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290247275494

Can someone shed a light on differences in Tar-Ox discs?

TMH sell Groove-40, on Ebay i see "Sports Japan" and "G88".

T.i.a.

Hi mate,

No idea why TMH hoses are so much more pricey than the Ebay ones - seem to be the same, but wherever you get them from, make sure you get some comeback if they don't actually fit or fail.

As for the tarox disks - try here?? http://www.tarox.com/en/discs.php

Hope this helps!

[DJ]

Just to be clear, TMH currently sells these for £87.00, not quite the £100.00 mentioned but certainly a good bit more that the items on eBay. The eBay items (at nearly half the TMH price) appear to be a great deal and I can't see why there would be any difference.

Don't know much about the Tarox discs but their pads are awesome and work exceptionally well with stock discs.

[1,6 HF]

Just to be clear, TMH currently sells these for £87.00, not quite the £100.00 mentioned but certainly a good bit more that the items on eBay. The eBay items (at nearly half the TMH price) appear to be a great deal and I can't see why there would be any difference.


If you don't trust the eBay suppliers, but you don't want to pay the TMH mark-up, you can buy direct from Goodridge for £62.28:
http://www.goodridge.co.uk/buy-goodridge-hoses.php?mk=302

For my Fulvia, I got them with covers in "carboline" (charcoal gray); at a glance they look like standard rubber lines, and there's no exposed stainless braid to chafe any adjacent components.

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

Just to be clear, TMH currently sells these for £87.00, not quite the £100.00 mentioned but certainly a good bit more that the items on eBay. The eBay items (at nearly half the TMH price) appear to be a great deal and I can't see why there would be any difference.

Don't know much about the Tarox discs but their pads are awesome and work exceptionally well with stock discs.

DJ, TMH advertise prices excl. VAT. So you have to add 15% (lowered since dec 2008 ). In Holland suppliers have to advertise all their pirces incl. VAT for "normal buyers". Strange TMH don't do that.

I really appreciate what TMH do, and would pay an extra amount to support them, but twice as much is a bit too much in my humble opinion. The Ebay Goodridge venders advertise as doing "tailormade jobs as well" maybe there is a difference in the definition of Goodridge? I don't think they come in the Goodridge boxes, maybe they only use Goodridge rubberhose?

Thanks for commenting on Tarox. Darren, i sent them a mail asking for prices.

Cheers, Pieter

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

[QUOTE=1,6 HF;17135]If you don't trust the eBay suppliers, but you don't want to pay the TMH mark-up, you can buy direct from Goodridge for £62.28:
http://www.goodridge.co.uk/buy-goodridge-hoses.php?mk=302

Thanks Ed, great tip.

[DJ]

DJ, TMH advertise prices excl. VAT. So you have to add 15% (lowered since dec 2008 ).

That's a good point. Because we don't pay the VAT here in the USA I often forget that.

[Andrew S]

I really appreciate what TMH do, and would pay an extra amount to support them, but twice as much is a bit too much in my humble opinion.

Cheers, Pieter

My point exactly, on a number of threads here already... GC exhaust... Koni shocks... and now these brake hoses. Be careful MH, people will only pay so much...

Andrew.

[Darren]

My point exactly, on a number of threads here already... GC exhaust... Koni shocks... and now these brake hoses. Be careful MH, people will only pay so much...

Andrew.

Koni shocks? Where else can you get these please mate?

Cheers

[DJ]

Koni shocks? Where else can you get these please mate?

Cheers

If I could figure out the correct donor car, I know where to get the inserts. Still working...

[DJ]

My point exactly, on a number of threads here already... GC exhaust... Koni shocks... and now these brake hoses. Be careful MH, people will only pay so much...

Andrew.

I agree. I had this conversation with Rod while we were in Torino in 2006 before he took over TMH. I do know that he is sensitive to this but am not sure how much he can do about it with current supplier agreements. One would think that their price for the Goodridge hoses would be a lot closer to those of the manufacturer, though.

On the subject of TMH, I just received the rear interior trim panel replacement for my Scorpion and I have to say that I am very pleased with the pieces. I was initially reticent to order these parts based on previous experience with a TMH GRP replacement piece which I felt was poorly made, VERY thick and heavy for what it was, and required extensive "fitting" instead of simply bolting on as it should.

The rear trim pieces are very well made and are thinner and lighter than I expected. Very nice pieces overall. See photo.

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

Don't know much about the Tarox discs but their pads are awesome and work exceptionally well with stock discs.

DJ, what Tarox pads are you using?

http://www.tarox.com/en/klocki.php

[Andrew S]

Koni shocks? Where else can you get these please mate?

Cheers

COPIED THIS FROM MY PREVIOUS POST ON THIS SUBJECT OF A FEW MONTHS AGO [perhaps you missed it...:-)]

Hi all,
TMH sell Konis that were originally for the Toyota Corolla and Carina, 1.6, 1988-1996. Part number: 86411145 sport. I have no idea if TMH modifies them in any way before they are sold on but that's what they are. I do know you need a "fitting kit" from TMH to make 'em fit. The Konis are readily available in the USA for well under $200 each. The rears I don't know about but TMH swears they are from a "source in Italy" and that may well be because I know they don't buy the rears from the same source...

I hope this is useful to y'all!

Andrew.

[Darren]

COPIED THIS FROM MY PREVIOUS POST ON THIS SUBJECT OF A FEW MONTHS AGO [perhaps you missed it...:-)]

Hi all,
TMH sell Konis that were originally for the Toyota Corolla and Carina, 1.6, 1988-1996. Part number: 86411145 sport. I have no idea if TMH modifies them in any way before they are sold on but that's what they are. I do know you need a "fitting kit" from TMH to make 'em fit. The Konis are readily available in the USA for well under $200 each. The rears I don't know about but TMH swears they are from a "source in Italy" and that may well be because I know they don't buy the rears from the same source...

I hope this is useful to y'all!

Andrew.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the info mate - very handy to know indeed! Now if we could only find out the detail for the rears. I think I can actually afford to upgrade my shocks now! ;o) :cheers:

Anyone got the details on the rears?

Cheers

[Andrew S]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the info mate - very handy to know indeed!

Cheers


It is handy to know... especially when you realise you can get 'em for around 50% less than TMH...

As I said...

Andrew.

[DJ]

DJ, what Tarox pads are you using?

http://www.tarox.com/en/klocki.php

I have the Tarox fast road pads sold by TMH. I bought them several years ago when I first bought my car and they provided an immediate and significant improvement over the stock pads I had.

Not sure which manufacturer version they equate to.

[DJ]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the info mate - very handy to know indeed! Now if we could only find out the detail for the rears. I think I can actually afford to upgrade my shocks now! ;o) :cheers:

Anyone got the details on the rears?

Cheers

FWIW, the only difference in the stock front and rear struts is a slightly longer tube on the rear. I can determine no other difference in damping, etc.

Most people here in the US who use inserts to replace Scorpion and X1/9 struts use the same insert front and back with a slightly different spacer underneath. This makes sense to me as the front-rear weight balance is pretty close on both cars. At least close enough, IMO. And the inserts all have a longer stroke that the stock strut so that helps make up for the longer rear tube.

In fact, Pedders, an Australian manufacturer, actually specifies the same insert front and rear for the X1/9 and I know of two Scorpions owners here in Denver who have had excellent results with their X1/9 inserts. However, my dealings with the local Pedders supplier results in unacceptable pricing, especially for what is a "comfort" insert with no adjustability.