Unsoldering Beta body

[mmd78]

Hello there,

I got an old rusty and damaged Beta Coupè 2000 III Series. I'm currently unmounting everything form the body as spare parts for the next Beta I'll get.

While having a corpse in by garage I would like to pratice with bodywork. I'm interested in unsoldering body parts to skill-up. Does anyone know how to unsolder parts ? Do I have to warm joints with a buthane/propane flame or something more hot is required ? And then which tecnique is used to join two pieces of metal of a car body ?? Do I have to use flames,
or electric soldering is good aswell ?

Where can I find Beta body drawings ?

Thanks a lot to everyone who will help me !
Marco '78

[chrisc]

I always used a grinder :) subtlety isnt my strong point though....

[cthargiss]

The Beta is not soldered, it is spot welded. You need a spot weld drill to cut the welds. Re-attachment is by welding,preferably MIG or TIG, or brazing.
Craig

[mmd78]

cthargiss and chrisc:

thank you very much!

I actually do not know the difference between solder and weld (english is not my home-lang.) but I'll check the exact meaning and investigate on TIG and MIG tecniques (I think they use a lead wire melt by electric arc between the wire itself and the body parts...isn'it?).


Well, I think my wife will bother in next month... :-)

See Ya!

[cthargiss]

Spot welds are created by pressing two or more layers of metal between small diameter electrodes and passing a high amperage current through them. MIG is wire feed, where a charged steel wire is fed into the work with a shielding gas flowing over the weld area. TIG is the same as Heli-Arc, where an arc is struck with a tungsten electrode and filler wire fed seperatly. Hope this helps. Craig

[mmd78]

Thanks a lot Craig!

Two more question:
where can I find drawings of beta body parts and related welding points ?

Once I have removed the spot weld form one layer (the inner one) with a spot weld drill, what is the best way to rejoin again ? Do I have to fill the hole in the inner layer with the MIG/TIG steel wire, or what else ?

Thanks again
Marco

[Kev]

Yes, you're definitely not going to be soldering! That's a technique used in electrical circuits or, in body work terms, by specialists using lead as a body filling technique where structural strength is not an issue and low heat is used.

On cars we're talking welding. This is where both the pieces of metal to be joined are taken to such a high temperature they fuse together. This high temperature is reached either by using a burning gas mix (oxygen-acetylene) or by an electrical arc (spot welding or MIG welding).

If you're serious about doing a variety of welding at home I would suggest MIG. The gas mix method means you must have hefty (and expensive to initially purchase) bottles of gas and this is not for the amateur as you will just rip through mild steel if you're not careful. Spot welding is okay but is limited for a variety of work as it operates by two probes being placed either side of the metal to be joined. This is fine on easy to reach seams (e.g. where a body panel comes into a door jam) but on isolated repairs it is nigh on impossible to get the 'far' probe in position!

MIG is very versatile and a home use portable welder can be picked up quite cheaply. MIG just stands for Metal Inert Gas but don't let this put you off! This system operates by feeding a metal wire through the welding tip with a high current through it. Obviously to get the electrical arc there must be a complete circuit and this is achieved by another cable coming from the welder with a clamp on it than can be fixed anywhere in the vicinity of the metal to be welded. An inert gas (usually argon) is blown around the welding tip so that the welding joint is made strong.

Using MIG you can weld two pieces of metal together in two distinct ways:
1) Plug welding: This is where the uppermost piece of metal to be joined has a small drilled hole in it. This is placed on top of the other piece of metal and the weld made through the hole to join the pieces together. This simulates a spot weld made with a spot welder.

2) Lap joints: this is where a 'joggler' is used to make an indentation on one piece of metal. The other piece of metal is placed on this lap (the indentation makes the pieces of metal level) and a continuous weld is made along the lap.


To 'undo' an existing weld you can either drill it out (if it's a spot weld) or you must grind it out with an angle grinder. There's no way the flame on a normal blow torch is ever going to get the metal hot enough to separate the welds.

There's loads more I could tell you but this posting is getting a bit long. If there's anything else you'd like to know just ask!!! :wink:

[Will]

..I'd just like to point out that single-side spot welding can be easily achieved with the use of a welder that as a weld-timer feature, and a slotted cup for the gun.
The gun tip is placed up against the metal, and the weld-timer provides current for just long enough to make a spot weld. Fast, easy, clean.
For removal, weld cutting bit works well. Sectioning with cutoff tool,grinder, or in some cases nibbler works well.
Anything with heat, ie oxyfuel cutting, doesn't work so well, because it distorts the metal enough to render the last several inches unusable, so then you are back to trimming anyway.
Unlike the other guys, I'd recommend oxy-fuel first, because it allows you to do both cutting and welding, and major cutting at the scrappy when time's at a premium. Mig's fine and dandy, I have one of those too, but it doesn't allow you to do anything you can't do with oxy-fuel, it just allows you to do it faster- and it doesn't cut.
I know, somebody will chime in here about stainless steel. Truth is, you can use hydrogen in your oxy-fuel rig to weld stainless just fine, but ask yourself how much stainless you plan on having to weld, realistically?
You can purchase an entire decent oxyfuel setup with a cutting torch for about $450 USD, same as a bottom-feeder Mig setup. Plus, you don't need electricity, which is important if your main source of power in your workspace constists of, say, an extension cord run from the house. Even a 110V Mig unit it going to really want a 20A dedicated circuit. I think there are now several 15A units, but you can generally put these in the "toy" category.

-Will

My. 02
-Will

[Kev]

Points taken. My answer was based on the fact that 'mmd78' is a novice wanting to do some pratice work on a car in his garage. I've used both oxy-acetylene and MIG and would still recommend the latter for the beginner. A low amp welder - fine for doing mild gauge steel body work repairs of the type described by mmd78 - can be picked up cheaply, takes up little room, gives good results with relatively little practice (once the wire speed is adjusted correctly!) and is ideal for the amateur user in a wide range of welding techniques. Gas is more versatile but IMHO is not for the casual home user! I guess it's up to mmd78 to compare prices and techniques and get practicing!

[mmd78]

Kev and Will, thankyou very much for your explanations.

I will only pratice on that, but I feel using torch is more for "creative and artistic" people...I am more for 'technical and mechanical' works and for the first times I'll prefer to do something 'mechanic and repetitive' and easy...

I have still one question: don't I risk to melt the pieces for overheat using the MIG ??


Thanks a lot again to you two....
Marco 78

[Kev]

Hi Marco

Don't I risk to melt the pieces for overheat using the MIG ??

If you're concerned about melting big holes in the metal with a MIG welder the answer to your question is "no"*. MIG is extremely contrallable and once you've had a bit of practice you'll be able to adjust settings on the welder to suite the thickness of steel you're welding.

*Obviously there's a small amount of localised melting but that's all part of the welding process - remember with welding you're essentially aiming to fuse two pieces of metal together to form one piece.

Take a look at a typical quality MIG welder (e.g. http://www.sip-group.com/PAGES/800x600%20PAGES/pdf/Migmate%20105%20Turbo.pdf) This will weld steel from 0.7mm to 4.5mm thickness, has controllable current and wire speed to deal with varying thicknesses of steel, operates from a standard domestic electical supply etc. etc.
One of these will set you back around Euro200 new. You will also want a good quality face mask (NEVER look directly at an electical arc even for a short period of time) and a pair of welding gloves.

I know what Will is saying about gas and I agree with him to a large extent. You would need a pretty kick ass MIG welder to compete with gas welding on thickness of metal to be welded but on a car you'll only find that kind of thick metal on chassis arm components and the like. Under these circumstances I would not recommend this kind of work is undertaken by an amateur. If a bit of non-structural body work is badly welded then too bad. If a structural chassis structure is badly welded you're going to get hurt...

[mmd78]

Hi Kev,
thanks a lot again.

I'm sure I'll be able to do a lot of pratice on welding and of course I can swaer that I won't touch _anything_ structural on a car I'll drive... I would like to live for other many yaers...

Is there any official Lancia documentation about chassis and body (in Italian its called 'Repair manual') is "workshop manual" in english ?

Thnks
Marco

[Kev]

I'm certainly no expert on the Beta - more of a Fulvia man myself!
Beta workshop manual's certainly do exist:
http://www.fiatparts.com/lancia.htm
http://www.omicron.uk.com/omi-bok2.html#Microfiche

Haynes is very popular in the UK and they do complete workshop manuals on many cars - including the Beta. If you can track one of these down you should be okay as they're detailed and good.

It's also worth checking out http://www.viva-lancia.com/links.htm and joining/searching a specific Beta forum (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/lanciabeta/)

[rossocorsa]

there is a separate and very comprehensive official bodywork manual for the coupé I think it is available as a photocopy from the english lancia motor club library

[betalatino]

For special tools to your bodywork proyect you can also get a free catalog from www.eastwood.com, it was very usefull to me and my beta.