Lancia 2L supercharger converison

[FORZALANCIA]

Hi there,

I have a 2L lancia beta coupe 1979, she went pretty good with a single carby, then i upgraded to twin carbys. I have had a little problem with the twin carbys in that the manifold is so close to the dizzy that i cant advance the timing. What is the best thing to do? File down the manifold? My manifold is one of Guy crofts for a block mounted dizzy.

P.S i am going to supercharge my lancia next, i have turbo cams, a supercharger off a 1ggze and a custom made planeum chamber. It bolts straight onto the block. The only problems are firstly i need to run an external oil filter bracket as the supercharger sits where the oil filter previously was?. Secondly the dizzy i have with the turbo cams, is fully electronic and requires an ECU, what can i do about this? I am going to use a decompression plate with 2 head gaskets and run a single 40 or 45 carby straight through the sc, with an intercooler running from infront of the grille to the carby. I will start off with a pulley ration of 1 to 1 and then move on to 2 to 1 if she can take the boost hopefully :P how much boost do you think i can run with the intercooler?

CIAO

Antony

[Will]

This post confused the hell out of me. (Can someone explain to me what he's talking about?)

You have a block mounted distributor? In which case, if you are putting a supercharger on the intake side of the motor, doesn't this require a change to a cam-driven distributor?
A cam drive is surely what I'd do.

BUT
Then you said you have a turbo ECU and dizzy. OK, well use them then. That'll keep you from having to recurve the one you have.

I got totally lost on the rest of this- you are going to use a sandwich plate on the head instead of lower compression pistons? OK, but then you'll need to find an oversize belt (try gates) or a smaller tensioner bearing. I have a hard time keeping one head gasket together, have fun with two! Plus you'll need adjustable wheels because you are going to have to back the timing WAY off to compensate for your sandwich plate.
Next, but not last:
How are you going to fit an intercooler UPSTREAM of the supercharger, or did I read that incorrectly?
Pulley ratios 1:1, then 2:1?
Pardon me, but it does NOT sound like you have the requisite experience to even attempt this, to do so would be of extreme folly if you don't know what you are doing.
Since you have Croft's book, you can start reading that, then a few Haynes manuals, etc.etc.
Only after you understand how volumetric efficiency and compression ratio go together, should you even start designing any type of forced-inductiuon system.
What you could do-easier and cheaper- is move to forged pistons and colder plugs, and add a 50HP shot of nitrous. You can do that on stock ignition timing and your stock fuel pump with no problem.
In fact, with a little work, you can get it to take much more- ask me how i know
-Will

:twisted:

[Will]

This post confused the hell out of me. (Can someone explain to me what he's talking about?)

You have a block mounted distributor? In which case, if you are putting a supercharger on the intake side of the motor, doesn't this require a change to a cam-driven distributor?
A cam drive is surely what I'd do.

BUT
Then you said you have a turbo ECU and dizzy. OK, well use them then. That'll keep you from having to recurve the one you have.

I got totally lost on the rest of this- you are going to use a sandwich plate on the head instead of lower compression pistons? OK, but then you'll need to find an oversize belt (try gates) or a smaller tensioner bearing. I have a hard time keeping one head gasket together, have fun with two! Plus you'll need adjustable wheels because you are going to have to back the timing WAY off to compensate for your sandwich plate.
Next, but not last:
How are you going to fit an intercooler UPSTREAM of the supercharger, or did I read that incorrectly?
Pulley ratios 1:1, then 2:1?
Pardon me, but it does NOT sound like you have the requisite experience to even attempt this, to do so would be of extreme folly if you don't know what you are doing.
Since you have Croft's book, you can start reading that, then a few Haynes manuals, etc.etc.
Only after you understand how volumetric efficiency and compression ratio go together, should you even start designing any type of forced-inductiuon system.
What you could do-easier and cheaper- is move to forged pistons and colder plugs, and add a 50HP shot of nitrous. You can do that on stock ignition timing and your stock fuel pump with no problem.
In fact, with a little work, you can get it to take much more- ask me how i know
-Will

:twisted:

[FORZALANCIA]

My setup is fully functional and was previously on a beta! But the guy blew his pistons up from running too much boost. My set up comprises of the following, a supercharger connected by piping to a planeum chamber. Attached to the sc is a 40mm dcoe and a pipe is attached from the intercooler to the carby ok? The intercooler is positioned just behind the front grille. Pretty simple if u ask me....

The problem i have is that my dizzy is block mounted so the planeum chamber gets in the way. So i will have to run a dizzy on the cam box,but cant use my exhaust cam as it doest have the fitting for a top mounted dizzy unless i use a fully electronic one but then i will need an ECU, where do i get one of those from and they cost alot? Otherwise i will simple use a turbo inlet cam and a standed exhaust cam using a top mounted dizzy with points.

ciao

Ant

P.S my 2 mates are lancia specialists and they are helping me set it up

if anyone wants a pic of what this setup looks like then give me ur email and ill send a pic

[Will]

You could slot the cam end for a Beta dog-drive distributor, and use a Crane or other aftermarket ignition. You'll need the distributor mounting and a beta cam box. Surely there must be an FI coupe or spyder somewhere available to you?
I STILL don't understand your "pretty simple" intake rig, supposing I were a molecule of air, in what order would I pass through the system?
-Will

[Will]

Forgot: 76lancia@optonline.net , maybe a picture will help me get it.
-Will

[Graeme Wellington]

Hi Antony

I'm doing the same thing over here in West Oz. The 1ggze supercharger has a 1.4 litre capacity (bigger version of the Toyota MR2 supercharger which had 1.2 litre capacity).

I believe that they are made by Ogura in Japan who make superchargers for Toyota, Volvo, and Mercedes. The dimensions and diagrams line up pretty well. Ogura quote a theoretical out put of 1460cc per rev. Max continuous rpm of 10,000, max instantaneous rpm of 13000. The max continuous pressure ratio is 1.8 (12 psi), with max instantaneous pressure ratio of 2.0 (15 psi boost). Max discharge at max rpm is given as 675 cu m per hour at a pressure ratio of 1.8.

So you won't be able to overdrive it at 2 times engine rpm, unless you keep engine rpm at about 5000 (unlikely) and any pressure ratio above about 2 will just push you outside the efficiency envelope, possibly leading to over-heating of the rotor coatings and destruction of the blower.

If you design your system around the 675 cu m per hour discharge, you should be able to develop about 270 bhp (maybe I'm being a bit simplistic here).

Maybe the guys on this forum with the volumex (1130cc I believe) or the bigger volumex from the 037 can give some insight into the capacities, pressure ratios, overdriving etc that they are achieving.

Graeme Wellington

[Bazza]

Hi Antony

I'm doing the same thing over here in West Oz. The 1ggze supercharger has a 1.4 litre capacity (bigger version of the Toyota MR2 supercharger which had 1.2 litre capacity).

I believe that they are made by Ogura in Japan who make superchargers for Toyota, Volvo, and Mercedes. The dimensions and diagrams line up pretty well. Ogura quote a theoretical out put of 1460cc per rev. Max continuous rpm of 10,000, max instantaneous rpm of 13000. The max continuous pressure ratio is 1.8 (12 psi), with max instantaneous pressure ratio of 2.0 (15 psi boost). Max discharge at max rpm is given as 675 cu m per hour at a pressure ratio of 1.8.

So you won't be able to overdrive it at 2 times engine rpm, unless you keep engine rpm at about 5000 (unlikely) and any pressure ratio above about 2 will just push you outside the efficiency envelope, possibly leading to over-heating of the rotor coatings and destruction of the blower.

If you design your system around the 675 cu m per hour discharge, you should be able to develop about 270 bhp (maybe I'm being a bit simplistic here).

Maybe the guys on this forum with the volumex (1130cc I believe) or the bigger volumex from the 037 can give some insight into the capacities, pressure ratios, overdriving etc that they are achieving.

Graeme Wellington

12 PSI will definitely mean that you need intercooling. The adiabetic heat generated with such boost will cause dangerously high ingoing charge temperatures otherwise.

[FORZALANCIA]

Dear Graeme,

I will be using turbo fiat cams, a decopression plate to lower the compression and a fully electronic ignition system with a 40 mm dollotro running a suck through. I have 2 pulleys for the crank one is the same diameter as the sc one bring 9.5cm while the other is 12.5 cm. Do you have any idea how much this will increase the boost?



Regards,
Antony

[Graeme Wellington]

Antony

Sorry to take a while to answer - have been too busy to spend much time here.

Your bigger pully will drive your sc about 32% faster than the small one. As for what boost that will give, I couldn't even guess because it depends on a lot of things. I suggest you get hold of a copy of Julian Edgar's book "21st Century Performance" where he gives some of the maths. Also many other good books would be available through your local library, for example Humphrie's "Automotive Supercharging and Turbocharging Systems - A Technical Guide".

You said that your friends who were helping you were Lancia experts. Are they also supercharging experts - if not, be wary of paying others to use your car as a learning experience.

I'm not experienced at supercharging, so I've been reading copious amounts of technical books to get an understanding of the main principles, then I'm adding in a bit of intuition gained from souping up cars over many years. But I'm starting from the basics. I want to develop over 250 bhp from the 1756cc capacity. More importantly, the type of motor-sport I do requires a lot of mid-range torque. So as well as getting an engine that will spin up to high rpm (my 1756 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally pulls strongly to 9000 rpm but nothing much under 5000!), I want to develop torque, and lots of it. So I'm using a 2 litre block with 1800 crank to improve the stroke:rod length ratio. The 79.2 mm stroke will keep the piston speeds lower and rev quicker because of a smaller effective diameter of rotating mass. With a supercharger I wont need to rev quite so hard, so I'll limit rpm to about 7,500 for when a gear has to be "stretched" in competition, but plan changes a bit lower than that.

Now looking at the sc specs, I can rev the sc continuously at 10,000 with instantaneous up to 13,000. If I use an overdrive ratio of 1.5 on the sc I should be able to go to 8,600 instantaneous on the engine, and run continuous at about 6,700. I'm fairly comfortable with those figures.

So I now design pulleys around that - to save cost I can use a 32 tooth pulley from an early beta hpe aircon system. Then I'll need to have a 21 tooth pulley custom machined for the sc.

But I still have no idea what boost I will end up with. I'm currently taking a rapid course in thermodynamics (a chemical engineer mate helping with calcs on an air to water heat exchanger). Then I can make some guesses about the compressor's adiabatic efficiency, do some calcs and work out if I'm close to my target. If not, we'll plug the whole lot into a spread sheet and do some modelling so that theoretically we get near the target.

To do it any other way, you might be lucky and jag it first time, or you might spend many thousands of dollars chasing your dream. Or you could go to someone who's done this sort of thing for a living and needs to keep reputation intact. If you are on the east coast of Australia, try the Rigoli brothers - they've done a lot of awesome work with turboed lancia motors and would definitely be worth speaking to.

Good luck

Graeme Wellington