1st time owner: 81 Lancia Zagato

[joshn569]

Just picked her up yesterday. Been sitting for over 2 years in the dirt. The frame and body are in pretty good shap, some surface rust here and there. Interior had been redone a few years back. Brake lines went on me first time stepping on the brake.

put a good battery in it and turn the key and just get clicks. popstarted it and had it running for a while so I know it runs and now im going to put some time amd effort into it to make a new fun summer car.

Any suggestion on the starting issue?? not sure where the starter relay is any one that can help me out?? Tryed giving the starter and the soloniod... (I think thats what it is on top of the starer) a good smack but still did not do the trick. Starter seems to be a pain in the arse to get out is it??

Thanks.

How about some good websites for lancia parts....http://lancisti.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=493&stc=1&d=1222136122http://lancisti.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=495&stc=1&d=1222136143

http://lancisti.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=494&stc=1&d=1222136132http://lancisti.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=496&stc=1&d=1222136149

[Jim Keller]

Tried to post this a while ago but the site flaked out on me, so here goes again, luckily, I was able to do a copy, visit other sites and come back to paste my reply back in as I really didn't want to re-type all this! ha ha:

Thats not sitting in the dirt! thats parked on a dirt driveway! there is a HUGE difference! LOL. I know! I have dragged them out of the dirt! you got it easy! ha ha ha

Nice looknig example BTW! (:-)

There is no factory relay on the starter. The problem is a couple cooroded plugs along the path of the red wire to the selinoid and a cooroded terminal at the selinoid. I finally "realized" or "found" and fixed the actual problem on my Coupe last March and have had no repeat of the problem since, and I drive my Coupe a BUNCH!
Over the years of owning several Betas, I have replaced ignition switches, starters, ran by-pass wires from the ignition switch and added the in-line relay fix folks told me to do trying to fix that problem, only to always have the problem crop back up in a short time.

To make sure this is your problem and not the starter it's self, (I have heard tell of Beta starters actually going bad even though it's very very rare), unplug the square plug just below the battery box towards the radiator corner of the tray, (there is a bunch of wires attached there), you'll have to follow it to be sure it's the one going to the starter, I think there is two there, maybe three red wires, anyway, with key on, E-brake set and car in neutral, jumper a wire from that connection, (starter side of course), to the positive of the battery, if it turns over, just replace the wire from just before that plug all the way to the starter selinoid terminal including the spade terminal that plugs onto the starter with one piece of wire. This will eliminate the cooroded plugs, (there are two or three from battery top starter), and pass enough voltage to the selinoid to allow it to switch power on for the starter.

Jumping this wire will also get ya going if your stranded somewhere with the no start hot problem, for a while I carried a piece of wire just for such occasions, now I know how to fix it and no longer carry the spare hunk of wire

If the selinoid doesn't get a full 12 volts, (make sure your battery is fully charged), it will not send power to the starter, so even though everything else electrically still works, the starter will not. Just a tad bit of coorosion on one or more plugs or spad terminals will cause it to not get a full 12 volts to the selinoid

Some folks will tell you to install a relay in-line, (I used to back that theory, but not anymore), sometimes that fixes it for a while, sometimes it doesn't, but replacing all the old wire and plug connections will fix it permenently without having to resort to hacking in a relay. It is the coorosion that is preventing the voltage from reaching the sel

[joshn569]

awesome, thats the kind of info i was looking for. I will give that a try sometime this week and let you know if the starter turned over.

thanks.

[joshn569]

I cleaned the wire connections, checked my bat voltage and it was at 13.2 and I jumped that wire and I still had no starter, just a click. Looks like I need to pull the starter out:mad:

[davidb]

Csaba @ Vick's usually has starters. Item#24-2641, $106.55.
800-466-3428 [No affilliation, just a suggestion]

[Jim Keller]

Yup,
Sounds like starter issues, Oh Boy! HAVE FUN! Bwaaaaa! Ha! ha! ha ha ha ha ha <evil sinister grin>

Remove the battery, battery tray/AFM, (AFM wire connector is behind on bottom towards engine, just wiggle and pull down once battery tray is unbolted and ready to pull out and it'll pop right off), dissconnect throttle body to AFM hose side connections and twist large hose back over top engine out of way, (be very very carefull with this hose, it is brittle and breaks easy and is extreemly hard to find), remove the front strut support, remove the lower rad hose at the T-stat and push down thru frame opening to drain rad and engine block into pan beneath, leave lower hose connected to the rad, disconnet upper hoses and the power and ground wires for the lower temp sensor in the rad and position them so they will pull out with rad without hanging up on something, the ground is connected at the block under the headlights on passenger side, other ground is for A/C, power, (yellow with black stripe), should have a plug in along the wire either just inside or outside the rad support, remove upper rad bolt and A/C line brackets, move A/C lines up out of way best as possible, the rad sits in a couple ribber plugs on the lower rad support, make sure those are put back if they stick to the rad and pull out with it, pull rad out carefully, twisting and angling as you work it out the driver side, since you still have A/C, you may find it necessary to unbolt the fan assembly prior to pulling the rad and take them out as two pieces. Now, with your wife's cosmedic mirror, you can look under the intake plenium and see the rear brackets. Take the bolts out of the block and starter and remove those. These brackets are extreemly important to re-install as they support the intake plenium, NOT the starter, now, remove the three bolts thru the tranny holding the starter, work it bak and up in the rear, twisting and angling again until you get it out. I have had trouble with them hanging up on the oil filter housing but you can get them out without removing it, it just takes the right cuss word, enoiugh beer and persistance

Oh yea, I almost forgot, take out the upper motor mount rod bolt at the rad support and bungee the rod up out of the way as far as possible too

This is not a fun job, but it's doable. I stuck a couple pictures up so you can see the starter and brackets, the engine bay in this picture is torn apart far further than you will need to go due to my anal retentiveness, (per my wife's opinion anyway), but will show you what you have once you get the stuff removed all the same.

You can remove the wires from the starter once you have it away from the engine laying on the sub-frame. At time of re-installation, replace that red wire and plugs as previously mentioned all the way to the batt tray to be sure you don't get the no start hot sympotm later in life, as well as clean or repair any other dang connection you can get to while you have it torn down

Hope that helps and good luck. As you can see in the pictures, I had the pleasure of not having A/C on my Coupe last March when I pulled my starter, so after removing the radiator, I also pulled the front grill and was able to do most of my work thru there since I didn't have a condensor in my way

[Jim Keller]

Uh, Jim, it would help if you actually POSTED the pictures! dumb a#%!

[joshn569]

WOW, this sounds like its going to be a fun job:eek:

I was going to do it this weekend, but I think im going to wait until I have a new starter in hand. thanks for all the info, thats going to help out a bunch. Ill let you know how it all goes...

[Jim Keller]

If ya have a good back, it's just time consuming really. The red wire is in the blue casing you see in the picture that runs up behind the plenium and connects via a plug on spade terminal on the selinoid on top of the starter, that's why you really need to drop the starter out a bit to at least do the wire job as all the connections are up behind that stinkin plenium! Makes the car run great, (tad more HP and torque than the Fiat plenium design), and have very good power for the engine size, but sure gets in the way of things! LOL

Some days, depending on what I am trying to work on, I really wish I had carbs! ha ha

[davidb]

Good Lord Jim, your are a Godsend to this Forum. Your posts on this topic
alone are proof !

[SubGothius]

Chances are you won't need a whole new starter. Beta starters are pretty bulletproof Bosch units, and unless it's literally been sitting underwater or sunk into a mud bog for an extended period of time, IMHO most reports of a new starter restoring startage to a Beta are actually more a matter of ditching the old solenoid for a new one that just happened to come attached to a new starter motor, along with refreshing all the wiring and connections along the way as part of that job. Before you go to the trouble and expense of purchasing a whole new starter, first try a fix that could cost only perhaps a tenth of what a new starter costs.

When I was having symptoms similar to yours on an erratic basis, usually for hot restarts, I'd finally had enough and pulled the starter one weekend. I found the solenoid practically falling apart! :eek: The screws holding the endcap (where all the terminals and contacts are) onto the solenoid body had fallen out, so the endcap was only hanging on by the winding wires coming out of the solenoid body and welded to their contacts in the cap. When I would turn the key, the plunger inside the solenoid would snap back (which levers the actual starter gear into mesh with the flywheel ring gear), but as it strained against the endcap literally holding on by a thread of wiring, it might or might not make contact in the endcap to send any currrent to the starter motor.

I took the solenoid to a few LAPS (local auto parts stores) and started looking thru their supplier catalogs to see if I could eyeball a compatible substitution to ask for, then if they had it in stock, compare that actual unit to the old one I'd brought in. I did ID a few possible close-enough matches, but at some point someone tipped me off to the idea of taking the old one in to a local alternator exchange/rebuild shop. They didn't have a rebuilt one already in stock, but could rebuild mine by next day (coulda been same-day if I'd gone in earlier), all for the whopping cost of... $20.

All told, all it took was $20 for the solenoid rebuild, a few more bucks for new wiring, connection terminals and a relay (you'll want to take this opportunity to install a relay, if one hasn't been installed already, to save your ignition keyswitch from burning out), and a few hours of back-straining, cursing, beer-slugging fun! Hey, if I didn't think this was my idea of fun, I wouldn't own a Beta! :D

[joshn569]

Yup,
Sounds like starter issues, Oh Boy! HAVE FUN! Bwaaaaa! Ha! ha! ha ha ha ha ha <evil sinister grin>

Remove the battery, battery tray/AFM, (AFM wire connector is behind on bottom towards engine, just wiggle and pull down once battery tray is unbolted and ready to pull out and it'll pop right off), dissconnect throttle body to AFM hose side connections and twist large hose back over top engine out of way, (be very very carefull with this hose, it is brittle and breaks easy and is extreemly hard to find), remove the front strut support, remove the lower rad hose at the T-stat and push down thru frame opening to drain rad and engine block into pan beneath, leave lower hose connected to the rad, disconnet upper hoses and the power and ground wires for the lower temp sensor in the rad and position them so they will pull out with rad without hanging up on something, the ground is connected at the block under the headlights on passenger side, other ground is for A/C, power, (yellow with black stripe), should have a plug in along the wire either just inside or outside the rad support, remove upper rad bolt and A/C line brackets, move A/C lines up out of way best as possible, the rad sits in a couple ribber plugs on the lower rad support, make sure those are put back if they stick to the rad and pull out with it, pull rad out carefully, twisting and angling as you work it out the driver side, since you still have A/C, you may find it necessary to unbolt the fan assembly prior to pulling the rad and take them out as two pieces. Now, with your wife's cosmedic mirror, you can look under the intake plenium and see the rear brackets. Take the bolts out of the block and starter and remove those. These brackets are extreemly important to re-install as they support the intake plenium, NOT the starter, now, remove the three bolts thru the tranny holding the starter, work it bak and up in the rear, twisting and angling again until you get it out. I have had trouble with them hanging up on the oil filter housing but you can get them out without removing it, it just takes the right cuss word, enoiugh beer and persistance

Oh yea, I almost forgot, take out the upper motor mount rod bolt at the rad support and bungee the rod up out of the way as far as possible too

This is not a fun job, but it's doable. I stuck a couple pictures up so you can see the starter and brackets, the engine bay in this picture is torn apart far further than you will need to go due to my anal retentiveness, (per my wife's opinion anyway), but will show you what you have once you get the stuff removed all the same.

You can remove the wires from the starter once you have it away from the engine laying on the sub-frame. At time of re-installation, replace that red wire and plugs as previously mentioned all the way to the batt tray to be sure you don't get the no start hot sympotm later in life, as well as clean or repair any other dang connection you can get to while you have it torn down

Hope that helps and good luck. As you can see in the pictures, I had the pleasure of not having A/C on my Coupe last March when I pulled my starter, so after removing the radiator, I also pulled the front grill and was able to do most of my work thru there since I didn't have a condensor in my way

I really dont think my a/c unit works, would it be worth removing the whole a/c unit and a/c componets or is it not worth the headache?

The car is for the most part a convertible any way and I cant see me ever even using a/c.

[OperaHawk]

Welcome to the fold! Yours looks just like mine (how many other people hate this guy for finding one with an almost perfect rear top????!?!?! ;)

Everyone's right about the major parts being bulletproof - it's usually the smaller parts (like the solenoid) that go south and leave you on the side of the road kicking the Russian steel. I'd try repairing the solenoid first as per Sub-G before you start digging into the mess that is our engine bay. But this is the place to go for help...

BTW, I'll have some parts available when I get to stripping my red LBZ.

And La Fenice (aka Due) is currently at the body shop having the frame supports re-welded at the B-pillar - ALMOST DONE!!!! I can't wait - it'll be perfect for the Blue Ridge as the trees turn. Now if I can only find some gas... :)

Anyone else familiar with the upper frame coming apart at the B-pillar (the windshield header under the targa, between the A- and B-pillar)?

SBJ

[Jim Keller]

Well, removing the A/C crap made mine a heck of a lot easier, no mirrors needed when you work thru the front grill opening, and you can easily do the job that way as well as you can see in my pictures taken thru the grill opening when I was redoing the front sectin of the car earlier this year.

If you go back a few pages, and look at some of my threads since about last November that I posted on some of the jobs I was doing, (I posted to help others mainly needing to do similar things but did the work some due to what it needed right away but mostly as preventive. I have had more than 23 Zagato's, 7 Coupes, 2 Scorpions, 2 850 Fiat Spiders, 8 Fiat 124 Spiders and 4 Fiat X1/9's since January of 1998 and have had about every problem you can with them! LOL, and didn't want to get stranded by something easily avoided!........plus my wife claims I am rediculously anal about my cars, just so you know! LOL), there you'll see some showing what it looks like now say a few more upgrades like the radiator and such since then, less all the A/C stuff that gets in the way.

Basically, if your not going to restore the A/C, RIP IT OUT! It's a convertible! My car sits over 2 inches higher now too though, so you'll need to address that as well if you remove all the stuff. I am not yet sure if I am going coil overs, (most likely), or just get a set of springs from Beta Boyz, (easy way out)

And that being said, before I restord the A/C in our famous Zagato, I came home pretty soaked in sweat and sun burned many times wishing I had fixed it too, even in Ohio! so it's your call. I no longer drive my Coupe when you need A/C and a lot of the system was gone when I bought it the first time, so I removed the rest after I bought it back last winter. However, Once I simply re-charged our good Zags, it worked perfectly and I have been in recent contact with the current owner to know it is still working fine 8 years later, all it took was 1 pound of R12 freon and that one came back to life

Thanks David, your comments humble me

Sorry to babble, I am avoiding house remodeling work! LOL

[joshn569]

ok, starter is unbolted and I need like another 1/4 in to get it out. I tried twisting and turning and everything else i can think of. I push up on the rear and can get it over the oil press sw housing but then it wont go back any farther. I need a 1/4 in. any tips?????????????????? Its pissing me off so badly, and my arms and hands are all cuts and scrapes lol.

[Jim Keller]

You just need to find the right twist/angle/swear word till you get the nose of the starter to swing out to you......it will come, I can't rememebr the exact position it finally fell out and then was also a bit of a struggle to find the angle to get it back in, but it will come out

I know I had the selinoid twisted towards the block, the butt up and wiggled and pulled on the nose till it found it's happy spot

You do have the oil filter off and all the brackets holding the starter and intake plenium off right?

[Jim Keller]

I think if you get it all the way back, twisted a bit and the nose basically centered in the trans hole, that ios were you'll have the most room for the nose to swing free, if your letting it lay on the opening edge, it's below the widest part of the opening and could be hanging there. Try picking up on the nose a bit while your swinging it out to see if that makes it clear

[joshn569]

Its out!!!!!:cheers:

I ended up pulling off the hood, grill, ac cond unit. I had to then pull off the oil pressure switch and it just about fell out back to front. It was easy going in from the front of the grill and I wish I did that from the start, thanks for all of your help, and thanks Jim for suggesting going in from the front of the car.

515

516

[Jim Keller]

Removing the hodd was a bit of over kill LOL!

Glad I could help

[joshn569]

I got around to rebuilding my starter today and I found that I had 2 problems.

1st: The starter wouldnt turn when power was put to it. I took it all apart and went through it. I washed everything in the parts washer and then checked out what I had. The 4 brushes had plenty of life left in them. I cleaned all the componets and took some 3m pads to the brushes and commutator, greased the bushings and put it all back together and it worked like new.

2nd: The solenoid would engage the bendix but would not transfer power to the starter. I got out the soldering iron and tryed to take that apart but it did not want anything to do with me and the plastic ended up cracking. Are there any more popular cars in the us that use bosch componets that I could match up a new solenoid with at autozone or an auto parts store. I was thinking early 80s BMW or VW may have something close to what im looking for...

here is a pic of the starter all apart






520

[DJ]

Well, pretty much any FIAT starter of a similar period will work.

Most any auto electric shop should be able to help you with this.

Also, you could do this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lancia-Beta-2000-Starter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39 Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp328 6Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem360096489646QQitemZ36009648 9646#ht_500wt_0) or this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LANCIA-SCORPION-MONTECARLO-STARTER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39 Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp328 6Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem120315074732QQitemZ12031507 4732#ht_500wt_0) or this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fiat-Lancia-124-Spider-131-Brava-Beta-Zagato-Starter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1 116QQitemZ260269505566#ht_1960wt_0) or this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fiat-X19-Rebuilt-Starter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39 Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp328 6Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem360096484924QQitemZ36009648 4924#ht_500wt_0) or this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OE-NEW-MARELLI-Fiat-5spd-X1-9-Bertone-STARTER-MOTOR-nos_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39Q3a1 Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2e c0Q2em14QQhashZitem280275210395QQitemZ280275210395 ) or this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-1973-Fiat-124-Spider-1-1L-STARTER-16256_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el111 6QQitemZ270125419274#ht_604wt_0) or maybe this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LANCIA-STRATOS-starter-motor_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el111 6QQitemZ220238673598#ht_500wt_0). :eek:

I think you get the idea. Just search eBay for "Lancia Starter" or "FIAT Starter". There also seems to be a number of solenoids available in those searches, too.

Can't remember if the Beta has it like the Scorpion does but if you get a FIAT starter, you may have to drill a recess into the housing mount for the alignment pin. It's a 2 minute job.

[Will]

Call 1-800-521-5462 and tell them what part(s) you need. Cheap, and possibly free.
Gotta love Bosch! :)

[DJ]

Additionally, a quick search of checkerauto.com for FIAT Spider starter found 5 options ranging from $64.99 to $108.99.

The same search on autozone.com found 2 options at $74.999 and $114.99 and a search at napaonline.com says you can get them at their stores.

I know that you're really only looking for a solenoid but my point is that any of these places may also be able to match up a part from a FIAT. NAPA is probably the best possibility and they are the only one that actually still lists Lancia in their databases. They can probably even cross-reference the starter part number.

[DJ]

If you want a REALLY nice starter, you could go for this (http://www.cambridgemotorsport.com/Lancia-Beta-Starter-motor) one. Now's the time because the exchange rate is much better than it has been.

[SubGothius]

Be careful re: FIAT-listed starter/solenoid substitutions. I'd actually bought a starter tune-up kit of sorts (new solenoid, fork and throwout bushing/pinion gear) from Midwest 124, listed for a "FIAT 124 or Lancia Beta", but it wasn't until I got my starter out that I realized the kit was all Magneti Marelli parts incompatible with the Bosch starter I'd pulled from the car, thus starting me on the path to discovering the $20 solenoid-rebuild solution.

BTW, I've still got to get rid of that useless-to-me Marelli kit, if anyone needs/wants it...?

[Jim Keller]

Why not just return the kit to John at Midwest124 for a refund, I doubt he would object

The Fiat 124 Bosch starter, I think used after 1981, will cross excet the previously mentioned alignment dowel, but that's an easy fix, just grab a pair of channel lock pliers and wiggle the dowel out of the Lancia transmission or grind it off, it isn't realy necessary and easier to remove the dowel than drill on the starter housing....IMHO (;-)

[DJ]

Why not just return the kit to John at Midwest124 for a refund, I doubt he would object

The Fiat 124 Bosch starter, I think used after 1981, will cross excet the previously mentioned alignment dowel, but that's an easy fix, just grab a pair of channel lock pliers and wiggle the dowel out of the Lancia transmission or grind it off, it isn't realy necessary and easier to remove the dowel than drill on the starter housing....IMHO (;-)

Naahh. Drilling the starter housing is simple and IMO much easier to do out of the car than to get that darn dowel out from underneath. But either approach works.

[joshn569]

I got a hold of Danny at funimported.com and he said he has 3 bosch soleniods down there so im going to take a ride down monday and see if one of them match the one I got. If not then ill end up ordering one online. I was hoping to get my car running this weekend because its starting to get real cold real quick here in MA and thats why im so reluctant to order one online and have to wait a week or 2 for it.
I really appreicaite all of your help on this matter:D

[Jim Keller]

Danny's a good guy, he'll fix ya up

Send him my regards! (:-)

[joshn569]

He had the exact part I needed!! I spent a few hours putting the car back together, put some fresh gas into it, got into the driver seat and turned the key and she now starts:cheers:. Now I need to replace all the brake lines so I can drive it and see what else needs to be fixed lol.

I was driving it up and down the driveway and I noticed the temp gauge works intermittent and the radiator was leaking a small amount of coolant from the upper left side fins, but hey she is ALIVE again.

[DJ]

He had the exact part I needed!!

Great news!


...see what else needs to be fixed lol.

That's easy with a Lancia of uncertain history. Just make a like of everything you haven't replaced yet. :eek:

[SubGothius]

Now I need to replace all the brake lines so I can drive it and see what else needs to be fixed lol ... I was driving it up and down the driveway and I noticed the temp gauge works intermittent and the radiator was leaking a small amount of coolant from the upper left side fins, but hey she is ALIVE again.

Big Gratz! Glad to hear you've resurrected another LBZ for the world to admire (and you to enjoy)! Now, down to business:

Temp gauge: could just be a bad/loose wire connection, either at the sensor in-head or at the gauge cluster.

Coolant: if you're lucky, sounds like it could just be wicking to that location from a loose/cracked weeping hose.

As for replacing brake lines, you could do worse than getting any of these (http://www.needforspeed.co.uk/pages/sbv_pt.asp?Type=1&Category=14&User=NFS&vehicle=LNBET01). The Goodridge "Colourflex" are stainless braided under an outer plastic jacket to keep dust/etc. out of the braids (IMHO worth the few $ extra vs. std. Goodridge stainless-braided); the Black Diamond kit is half the price, but not clear if they are indeed braided-stainless...? Might wanna inquire to clarify that before deciding.

[1,6 HF]

As for replacing brake lines, you could do worse than getting any of these (http://www.needforspeed.co.uk/pages/sbv_pt.asp?Type=1&Category=14&User=NFS&vehicle=LNBET01). The Goodridge "Colourflex" are stainless braided under an outer plastic jacket to keep dust/etc. out of the braids (IMHO worth the few $ extra vs. std. Goodridge stainless-braided); the Black Diamond kit is half the price, but not clear if they are indeed braided-stainless...? Might wanna inquire to clarify that before deciding.

+1 on the Goodridge hoses. You can also get them directly from Goodridge: http://www.goodridge.co.uk/buy-goodridge-hoses.php?mk=302. I thought the black Colourflex might look too shiny, so I went for a set in "carboline" (smoke gray) for my Fulvia, and they're visually almost indistinguishable from the stock rubber hoses. More than just serving as great camouflage or keeping dust out of the braiding, the Colourflex vinyl jacket keeps the stainless braiding from abrading anything else it comes in contact with, which can be a real issue with stainless hoses. I've been running them for several months; they perform great--perfect pedal feel.

[Jim Keller]

Temp gauge could also just be low on antifreeze, that'll make them jump around too as the sensor for that is in the head and as the water pump shoots water intermittenly accros it, it will fluxuate, showng cool when there is no water on it.

Rads probably a cheap and easy solder fix but I recoment a re-core for piece of mind due to the age. Lots of times, fixing one leak at a rust spot just pops out other weak areas when the pressurr is restored and you could end up with multipul repairs that end up costing as much as a re-core at the start would have.

Don't worry, when they sit for long periods of time, they always give ya lots to tinker on! LOL

[Will]

When the temp gauge is not working, is it reading high or low? It's an NTC thermistor. the NTC meaning "negative temperature coefficient". This type of device has an internal resistance that goes DOWN as the temperature goes up.

If the sensor has a bad/ loose wire, the resistance will be infinite and the gauge will read cold. If it's shorting to ground then it'll spike UP.

A radiator leak (even a small one) will introduce air in the system because it allows pressure to bleed out, and air to be drawn in.

So, my approach would be silver solder the radiator, fill and bleed, and then chase down the gauge problem if it persists. Fixing the first problem may well sort the other.

However, it wouldn't hurt to take a good look at the spade connection to the wire directly at the sensor- the wire jackets tend to get brittle and the connector is a weak point IMHO.

[joshn569]

It reads cold when its not working, I didnt bleed it yet so I will diagnose the leak and gauge problem more and see what I come up with. As far as brake lines go I will probly order that stainless braided set. Unfortunitly the shock and spring coil tower rotted out of my truck and the shock went through it so thats going to be this weekends big project:mad: