Beta Coupe mobile again...but

[Charley]

I finally got my Coupe back on the road today after my problem at FFO when a rear strut mount broke.While the car was up on jacks I decided to do some other stuff too.Here's what I have done.
1. Replaced both rear strut mounts and added a large washer between the top of the rod and the mount (as suggested by Will).
2. Replaced both rear struts with new sealed complete units from Omicron. (no more inserts).
3. Replaced the dreaded TRW manual steering rack bushing with a new one from Beta Boyz Reproductions.
4. Replaced the front wishbone bushings with new Beta Boyz Reproductions poly-bushings.
5. Two coats of Rust Bullet on all the parts taken off.
6. Four wheel alignment.

After test driving the vehicle I experienced a very noticeable amount of torque steer that was never present before.I figured after the alignment I would have an improvement in the torque sensation.The alignment didn't seem to change this much.The car tracks and brakes totally straight,corners nicely,rides about the same as always,and feels good and stable.But when I accelerate I feel the steering yank over to the left,and when backing off the throttle it tends to return to straight.I suspect the new poly bushings are so much different from the original metal with rubber bushings,that I am feeling torque steer that wasn't apparent before.I may try lowering the front tire pressure to see what this does. Any one have any thoughts or comments on why this annoying torque steer has all of a sudden appeared,or how to remedy?

[1,6 HF]

Glad to hear you're back on the road, but that torque steer isn't normal. I'd suspect incorrect toe settings on that alignment. Otherwise it could be either bad tie rod ends or rack movement (that new bushing?). In any case, it's not going to be cured with tire pressure adjustments.

[Jim Fierst]

FWIW.. I changed to Tha Beta Boyz front poly bushings on the control arms and sway bar and did not notice any torque steer. This was true both before the engine was modified and after.

[Will]

I would get the car back on the rack and check the four wheel align.

[chrisc]

My car has a full set of poly bushings fitted and I didnt notice any significant difference. My new wheels + wider tyres have cut it down though :)

[Charley]

Thanks all,
I will discuss the problem with the mechanic who did the alignment.The tie rods are new,less than 1000 miles.I hope I didn't screw something up when I put things back together.I assume the alignment readings should have pointed to any major problems. I'm sure nothing I did while working on the vehicle would have damaged anything to the extent to cause this torque steer.I took my good natured time and was VERY careful.The guy who did the alignment is an ace mechanic,and the alignment was done on a laser alignment machine. Alignment is NOT one of my strong points,but I am certain the work was done correctly. I will keep you all posted,and thanks for the help.

[1,6 HF]

Charley,

I assume your ace alignment guy knows the correct factory toe settings for the Beta(?) Because I don't remember the correct setting, but I do remember that it's critical to stability under acceleration.

[Jim Keller]

have you checked the motor mounts? believe it or not, a bad motor mount can cause torque steer, as in the case with my Coupe when the front, (right), motor mount was bad, (the one under the engine pullies bolted to the drive shaft boss), It was mushy soft and had the engine laying on the frame at rest but let the motor twist WAY forward and back as well as lift too far up under power and driving situations

[Charley]

I decided to take a good look see at the front suspension and motor mounts,etc.Well HERE (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showfull.php?photo=7492) is what I found.Two of those new poly bushings came apart.One on each side,and both damaged bushings were the front inside bushings.I don't know if I somehow damaged them during installation or they just were defective.I torqued the bolts to spec,so I don't think that was the cause of the failure.Needless to say I am going back to the metal and rubber original type bushings,I don't think those are as fragile.I won't blame the Beta Boyz bushings because other guys like them and had good success with them,but I think they are flimsy compared to the original type.Any input is appreciated.

[Pope1]

I starting reading this thread a few minutes ago and was about to suggest that it sounded like your wishbones were flapping but I see you've come to the same conclusion and identified the cause. I fitted BB poly bushes all round on my car and so far have not had any problems. However, I've not noticed any improvement in handling over the rubber ones either.

Seems strange that the same one has gone on each side. Hmmmmm.

On a completely different subject, how have you found the new struts? I'm interested because the Sachs ones on my car are far too soft for my liking.

[Charley]

I starting reading this thread a few minutes ago and was about to suggest that it sounded like your wishbones were flapping but I see you've come to the same conclusion and identified the cause. I fitted BB poly bushes all round on my car and so far have not had any problems. However, I've not noticed any improvement in handling over the rubber ones either.

Seems strange that the same one has gone on each side. Hmmmmm.

On a completely different subject, how have you found the new struts? I'm interested because the Sachs ones on my car are far too soft for my liking.



Omicron has standard or performance struts,I bought the standards.They seem just fine for my needs,but I haven't put more than 20 miles on them.I installed the struts and control arm bushings at the same time.Unfortunately after all my work and a $65 four wheel alignment I found the shredded control arm bushings.
As for the damaged bushings,the general consensus I received from people (I drive truck for Reynolds Kama plastics) who are plastics experts and some other good auto mechanics is that I got two defective bushings.The bushings that came apart are brittle and can be cut with a fingernail and be pulled apart by hand easily.The ones that remained undamaged were much more plyable and would not easily cut and could not be pulled apart by hand. Just my luck I guess. :confused:

[Pope1]

Try contacting BB and see what they have to say. I believe that they have been good in the past with people who have had product issues. I don't recall my bushes being brittle at all.

[rossocorsa]

have you discussed this with Mark at betaboyz i think we all need to know what's the rap with these as most of us have them!

[Charley]

Try contacting BB and see what they have to say. I believe that they have been good in the past with people who have had product issues. I don't recall my bushes being brittle at all.

I have already ordered new original type bushings from Bayless.I'm sure Beta Boyz are already aware of any similar issues with their parts.The guys at the plastics plant said those bad bushings could be a fluke of one in a thousand.They explained to me a lot of things can occur while manufacturing plastics that will effect the plastics quality,even temperature,humidity,one small drop of contamination,etc.

[Jim Keller]

Are you sure you installed them correctly? you are the first person I have heard of having a problem with them
If you didn't "Pre-Load" the suspension before torquing the bushings, that is what tore them up as they were being over extended when the suspension flexed.

[Charley]

Are you sure you installed them correctly? you are the first person I have heard of having a problem with them
If you didn't "Pre-Load" the suspension before torquing the bushings, that is what tore them up as they were being over extended when the suspension flexed.

Thanks Jim,
I did jack up the a-arms just below the ball joints. I saw the jig that Lancia used to compress the suspension in the Beta manual,but I thought that loading the suspension with the weight of the car was going to be sufficient. I don't know if I could have compressed the suspension any more unless some weight was added to the front. Without that special jig to compress the suspension,I did the only logical thing (I thought). I pretty much did the same thing when compressing the rear suspension to torque the transverse links. Do you have any tips on loading the suspension for installing the new bushings that are on the way?

[Jim Keller]

The Hill Jack way:

Open bottle of beer, pick bugger, wipe on something

Jack up car and sit on concrete blocks, (I didn't have any so I used jack stands)

Open second bottle of beer, pick at your ass and scratch your head

Disconnect and remove struts

Open third bottle of beer, dig wax out of ears

Measure the suspension componants distance to the floor, (A-Arm or rear arms), when the stock bushing is at it's rest, (when there is no up or down stress on it)

Open fourth bottle of beer, dare buddy to shoot apple off your head with your 22/250

Install and torque new bushing with same measurements

Open fifth and then sixth bottle of beer, clean and bandage wounds and burns from falling into tool box and garage heater

Re-install struts

Open seventh bottle of beer, pass out, wait till morning to test drive

Thats as close as ya get unless you actually pre-load the car with bags of water softner salt or cat litter till you get the amount of weight in the car and on the suspension to torque them

[1,6 HF]

You've got the garage heater on in August? or did that accidentally get turned on after the fourth beer?

[DJ]

Open fourth bottle of beer, dare buddy to shoot apple off your head with your 22/250

In Mississippi we used one of the empty beer cans instead. Extra points for using a .410 with slugs or a snub-nosed .38 instead of a rifle. :eek:

I know it's not precisely the same thing but on the Scorpion I simply put ramps under the rear wheels so the wheels were loaded with weight, jack-stands under the front, then had my wife and daughter sit in the car with weights from my barbells stacked on the floor to add some weight and compensate their individual weights side-to-side while I torqued the bolts. Just reverse the ramps and stands for the Beta.

[Charley]

Thanks guys,I have my plan now.The Beta shop manual and the Haynes manual give a few different procedures for loading the suspensions.I will go with the Haynes procedure which states that the wishbone should be horizontal and in line with the subframe while jacking the car at the outer end of the wishbones and gives some measurements,this is similar to what I did except I did not bother with the measurements.I did not think it was so critical.I may have had the wishbones past horizontal,or loaded too much I'm not sure.This can be done without removing the strut according to Haynes.I have also used the procedure similar to DJ's in the past (on the rear),but there may not be enough room to work a torque wrench under the front with the wheels on.I will be extra careful about the measurements with the wishbones this time.I still beleive that the bushings that tore were defective,or at least not quite up to specs.
As for the shooting of the apple off my head after the fouth beer,I don't have any of the recommended firearms.Can I use a co2 powered Benjamin air rifle instead ? :rolleyes:

[Pope1]

Personally, I 'd get the front struts out of the way and do the front ones that way. In the past I've done the rears by jacking the back up and loading the boot/trunk with concrete blocks but it's not something I enjoy because it always feels as if something is going to go wrong.

I don't believe that a few mm here or there will make much difference to be honest. I guess the only other thing to do when fitting the poly bushes is perhaps to put a little synthetic grease around them before fitting but definitely not with the rubber ones.

[Jim Keller]

No heater in August, I just noramlly do that kind of work over the winter. (;-) LOL

[Charley]

All fixed....AGAIN. I replaced the damaged poly bushings with the OEM type control arm bushings and used the detailed "Jim Keller beer drinking installation method" (minus the firearms discharge step).Test drove the car to work and back for the last three days with no further problems.Now I'll go for the alignment before I wear away any more rubber from the tires.Thanks to all for the responses.

[Jim Keller]

Cool! glad to hear it's back together now, ready to do my Coupes suspension now for free labor? LOL

Once ya get it aligned, you'll love it. I was surprised to feel the difference in my good one after I had it aligned post Koni install as the tech said it wasn't very far out, so I wasn't expecting much change, but boy was I wrong! it did it make a huge difference, the suspensions, unlike a hard axel Mustang I guess, are very sensitive

[Charley]

[QUOTE=Jim Keller;15397]Cool! glad to hear it's back together now, ready to do my Coupes suspension now for free labor? LOL

Sure Jim,bring it over to my garage.
Take I-71 north to I-76 east to I-80 east.Get off at the Hickory Run exit #274 and give me a call. Should only take about 7 hours to drive.However,it may take me another month to get it done :red face: !