E-Bay Sedan

[davidb]

My God one exists! I'd buy it but too far away. Nice one too.
124 Coupe also. No afilliation.

[Jim Keller]

Someone else can have it, even if it was close and free! I have no desire to have such an ugly powerless car!

I like Lancias, but not all their models, I like Fords too, doesn't mean I would buy an Escort or Crown Vic! LOL

[DJ]

I like Lancias, but not all their models, I like Fords too, doesn't mean I would buy an Escort or Crown Vic! LOL

Now Jim! I understand your point but that's a completely unfair analogy. That's like comparing an Apple Macintosh computer to an IBM XT running Windows 1.0.

[davidb]

Hey a Sedan was my 1ST Lancia, bought new, great car. W/ 89K
mi. on this one it's prime for an F.I. 2 ltr. ret-fit. Still no Alfa V-6
performance but . . .

[Jim Keller]

Didn't mean to offend <grin>

5 plus years ago, I would have been interested in this one just to say I owned one, but not anymore. That is in great condition, but these days, I can barely keep up with my Coupe, and I love it! so try trying to keep up with a car I am only warm too is unacceptable

[brian r]

I really wanted that car when I saw it, but it would be well over $1000 to ship it, and then I reminded myself I have this HPE to restore...I don't need another weirdo Beta.

[SubGothius]

Zounds, this must be a rare one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260272294690)! Not only is it a fairly nice, surviving US berlina, it's a '78 with early 1800 mechanicals under 2nd-series body/trim! I was certain that the 2nd-series body finally only came to the US in '79 with the 2L engine, so this must be what, a very late '78? Maybe a dealer-preview demo car of some kind, specially ordered for import by corporate? Some kind of restoration hybrid? :confused:

Gads, I am such a Lancia nerd for even noticing that...! :D

And I must be insane for even considering whether I could/should/would even try to get this one... :eek: I've even got an old friend in nearby Sacramento I could fly out and stay with, same as when I bought my LBZ out there... :rolleyes:

[Charley]

I took a picture (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7312) of one of these Sedans at FFO. The car is a big mystery to me because I never saw it arrive,and I never saw it leave.Also I never got to meet the owner, I was less than 50ft. away and I was watching for him,I can't explain how I missed him. Even stranger is the fact that the car has a late 80's style Pa. license plate,so it wasn't driven there (at least not legally). Anyone know who's car this is ? :confused:

[davidb]

What's dbl. strange is they're the same color. I noticed that 1800 badge
above the A/C vents too. Mine was a '78 also. I always thought mine was
a two liter. Hmmm ?

[1,6 HF]

Zounds, this must be a rare one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260272294690)! Not only is it a fairly nice, surviving US berlina, it's a '78 with early 1800 mechanicals under 2nd-series body/trim! I was certain that the 2nd-series body finally only came to the US in '79 with the 2L engine, so this must be what, a very late '78? Maybe a dealer-preview demo car of some kind, specially ordered for import by corporate? Some kind of restoration hybrid?

It's certainly a 2nd series body, but the turnk lid emblem also says 1800, which means it probably is a late 1st seties car with the newer body.

IMHO, the 'restoration hybrid' isn't very likely. Why would you drop in the smaller, smog-strangled engine?--it'd be just as easy to find a 2000. And if you did drop in the smaller one in place of the 2000, why would you advertise it by 'back-changing' the badging?

I think it's probably a late S1 with the S2 body. Such a 'transitional' spec car isn't exactly unheard of in the annals of Lancia production. There are a number of 'transitional' Fulvias with mixed 2nd-series/3rd series (or even some 1st-series/2nd-series) spec. Presumably, this was a function of changing over the body production lines before the mechanical lines (or vice versa), or simply a matter of the outside suppliers shipping some components earlier or later than the official model changeover date.

ALthough I've had 3 Beta coupes, the berlina never appealed to me. But if you ever wanted one, this sure looks like the one to go after.

[Will]

You aren't alone, Ed- I doubt the Berlina appeals to anybody (OK, maybe a few, but look at the bidding, it tells the tale). Trevi, anyone?

[Andrew S]

Trevi VX, Yes please!!!!!!!!!!!

Andrew.

[rossocorsa]

ALthough I've had 3 Beta coupes, the berlina never appealed to me. But if you ever wanted one, this sure looks like the one to go after.

you should try one I had a 1600 a few years back time warp car 20k miles of course to UK spec so not strangled like your anti smog versions reved to 7k no problem the interior is amazing so spacious and nicely thought out build quality solid as a rock as is trad for lancia 100% better than the sports models (strange that but true) handled like a sports car but no power steering and consequential low gearing was a pain. sold it to help fund and make parking space for a (then) new delta hpe hf another underated Lancia had it been a 2000 I'd probably have kept it lack of torque on the 1600 could be a pain uphill if off cam

[rossocorsa]

Trevi VX, Yes please!!!!!!!!!!!

Andrew.

can't think of anything about the Trevi that was anything other than worse than the earlier sedan aside from maybe RHD cars having power steering whereas earlier cars only had it on LHD, the seats are horrible , dash disfunctional, door trims illogical (where the hell are the handles!!) and back end down right ugly....now a vx drive train in a beta berlina second series that would be nice!

[67alloy]

I must say that I am one of the few to own a Series 1 Berlina in North America (the car is now with a new owner in California as of almost a year ago) and many of those offering negative opinions have never owned one.

Leather interior,wool carpets, Power windows, Sunroof, AC, Tinted glass, etc. etc. Not many other cars of that era came so appointed.

Build quality on my Series One car was excellent. Reminded one of old Lancia.

The 1800 motor had been "opened up" with headers, Alquatti manifold, dual Webers and Alquatti cams. It was lusty and fast, easily keeping up with modern (85+) highway speeds and very, very smooth. True genius, Lampredi.

I will admit to controversial styling, but the more you looked at it, the better it was. Thats why you buy Italian cars. Lots of nice styling details and certainly influence for everything that came later from America.

Though the Series Two did give something up with the redesign of that rear sail panel.

450

[1,6 HF]

My only negative comments would have to do with the styling. I never said it was a bad car but, as I said, it never appealed. IMHO, the design just doesn't hang together well. I always found the window shapes and detailing awkward; the A pillar and the C pillar look like they had different designers--two people who never spoke to each other. And the wheel arches/wheels are too small visually. And I've seen them in the metal--not just the pictures.

But to each his own. And the eBay offering certainly looks like a good one.

[SubGothius]

I must say that I am one of the few to own a Series 1 Berlina in North America
450
Oo, that is a lovely example. The paint in that shot appears like it might be "Lancia blue", or is it just black? The wing mirrors are an interesting touch, too...

Nice as that example looks, in that color and degree of polish, IMHO the 1st-series styling on most other examples I've seen, in other (especially lighter) colors with lesser care for finish, tends to look a bit clumsy, poorly-integrated and well, "designed by committee" (namely, "FIAT Centro Stile" :p). I have sometimes thought that, if one found a sound 1st series berlina desperately in need of new paint, it might look sharp with a two-tone light/dark paint job, divided at the upswept crease on the sail panel and continuing along the beltline and front fender crests (maybe Lancia blue under white/silver/ivory above?).

The 2nd-series body, while granted a bit blander than the quirky 1st series, IMHO looks sharper, sleeker and better-integrated, and works better in a wider range of (esp. lighter) colors and with the marginal finish maintenance often found in cars this old (alas). I think the flank design really came together with the 3rd series when they adopted the other models' door handles, but sadly we never got those in the US.

Color and finish really matter for making a series 1 berlina present well, like yours and like the one in my attachment below that shows really nicely with that burgundy (metallic?) paint and sorta dark-gunmetal looking (?) treatment on the front facia trim (no idea who that owner is, just a pic I found on the Webertubes somewhere ages ago).

[rossocorsa]

the best looking sedan is undoubtedly the third series mixes best of the last two with a cleaner less fussy treatment particularly at the rear and the nice late series delta style grille unfortunately these cars are rare and come with the disfunctional bellini interior like the Trevi (less said about the rear end styling of that the better I can't believe it's actually credited to pininfarina)

[Andrew S]

the Trevi (less said about the rear end styling of that the better I can't believe it's actually credited to pininfarina)

I would say the rear styling of the Trevi was undoubtedly influenced by the American school of design thought. The very upright rear window was contempory American design of the time and not really found anywhere else in the world (Volvo 7 series apart, which was designed for America anyway and was horrendous). It was most definitely not typical Italian sporting design, although small saloon/sedans were occasionally quite upright. Having said that, I like it on the Trevi.
I agree with the thoughts on the Beta saloon/sedan too; Series 3 was the best looking car. The windows were too small on the S1. In fact, all the Betas improved with subsequent design revisions in my opinion. How can you not like the Trevi/Beta S3 dashboard? It's insane! Fantastic piece of eccentric design. Eccentricity is, afterall, the reason for loving 70's Italian cars is it not...?

Andrew.

[rossocorsa]

How can you not like the Trevi/Beta S3 dashboard? It's insane! Fantastic piece of eccentric design. Eccentricity is, afterall, the reason for loving 70's Italian cars is it not...?

Andrew.

as a piece of achitecture it's great as something to use day to day i find it painful and all the controls such as gear lever etc are so damn clunky like they were made for a 5 year old

[67alloy]

A couple more pictures to oggle...

To me the most radical elements are the front grille and rear sail treatment. Fresh from Concorso Italiano, I saw the same rear sail treatment (to some extent) used on the Iso Lele. It evolved into the high-haunched, small rear window of the Alfa Milano, and more. It also made it's jump across the pond and influenced many cars... I see Vega, Torino, Chevette, Pontiac T1000, etc. etc.

A bit like wine tasting, I guess. What do you see in it?

Anecdote from this past Monterey weekend: walking along Ocean Ave. in Carmel is the equivalent of Rodeo drive. Many of the stores/galleries will put something/anything automotive related to catch your eye. Some are $50k paintings (and they sell!) I saw a shop on Ocean that put a couple of toy cars in the window...the largest of them being a 1:32 scale or so Beta Saloon Series II model in red. Not only have I never seen that toy before, but I had to almost laugh outloud given our current discussion on it's styling appeal. Apparently someone thought it looked attractive enough to lure in Ferrari and Lambo owners going up and down Ocean Ave. I only wish I had taken a picture...

Anecdote II: The 2006 (?) NEC Show in Birmingham England featured a Series One Saloon, in impeccable condition, on the Beta Boyz stand. The car was the hit of the stand! I will look around for a photo.

Nice to see the photo of the proud family enjoying their Beta Saloon!

To each their own, but it is certainly interesting to discuss the evolution of automobile styling. Put me down amongst those that treasure the quirky stuff of the Series 1, and not the derivative subsequent series.

[67alloy]

Here they are:

[1,6 HF]

...To me the most radical elements are the front grille and rear sail treatment. Fresh from Concorso Italiano, I saw the same rear sail treatment (to some extent) used on the Iso Lele. It evolved into the high-haunched, small rear window of the Alfa Milano, and more. It also made it's jump across the pond and influenced many cars... I see Vega, Torino, Chevette, Pontiac T1000, etc. etc...

I'm not sure I completely understand your argument. If you're suggesting that the Beta berlina influenced the design of the cars you name, there's a little timeline problem with some of them; the Iso Lele and the Chevy Vega predate the Beta berlina. Personally, I see no connection with the Ford Torino, but that car, too, predates the Beta.

The berlina may well have influenced the design of the Chevette, which followed the Beta by just a few years, but I'm not sure that an association with the design of the Chevette is anything to trumpet. But, as you say, there's no arguing taste.

[rossocorsa]

A couple more pictures to oggle...

To me the most radical elements are the front grille and rear sail treatment. Fresh from Concorso Italiano, I saw the same rear sail treatment (to some extent) used on the Iso Lele. It evolved into the high-haunched, small rear window of the Alfa Milano, and more. It also made it's jump across the pond and influenced many cars... I see Vega, Torino, Chevette, Pontiac T1000, etc. etc.

A bit like wine tasting, I guess. What do you see in it?

Anecdote from this past Monterey weekend: walking along Ocean Ave. in Carmel is the equivalent of Rodeo drive. Many of the stores/galleries will put something/anything automotive related to catch your eye. Some are $50k paintings (and they sell!) I saw a shop on Ocean that put a couple of toy cars in the window...the largest of them being a 1:32 scale or so Beta Saloon Series II model in red. Not only have I never seen that toy before, but I had to almost laugh outloud given our current discussion on it's styling appeal. Apparently someone thought it looked attractive enough to lure in Ferrari and Lambo owners going up and down Ocean Ave. I only wish I had taken a picture...

Anecdote II: The 2006 (?) NEC Show in Birmingham England featured a Series One Saloon, in impeccable condition, on the Beta Boyz stand. The car was the hit of the stand! I will look around for a photo.

Nice to see the photo of the proud family enjoying their Beta Saloon!

To each their own, but it is certainly interesting to discuss the evolution of automobile styling. Put me down amongst those that treasure the quirky stuff of the Series 1, and not the derivative subsequent series.

1:32 Series two????? are you sure it wasn't a Bburago 1:24 Series one? never seen a 1:32 scale Beta berlina of any series

[davidb]

My 1ST Lancia was a late '78 Beta Sedan bought new. Series #2 ?
It was a goofy looking underpowered car but the passenger compt.
+ the trunk were cavernous. I'm 6+' & it is the only car I've ever
had where when I moved my seat forward to make room for rear
passengers? I still had a comfortable driving position. 80+K trouble-
free miles too. There, I've said my piece .

[67alloy]

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[ckeen74]

Hi all,

So I'm the wacko who won the auction :p

Looks like I'm picking it up this evening. So far, it appears it needs restitching of the leather seats, and probably a new timing belt. Maybe a left rear wheel bearing, it seemed a bit clunky when I looked at the car. Smog will be provided, so that gets me off the hook for the first two years!

Question about the belt - I trust this car has one (like any Fiat-related twincam)... what is the magnitude of that work? Any manuals you would recommend specifically (factory vs. Haynes vs. something else)? Anything else you would attend to when purchasing a Beta? Fluids have all been changed.

Be gentle, I'm a first-time Lancia owner (although I cut my teeth on an Alfa spider and an Alfetta GT)... always wanted an HPE or a Berlina, and this was my chance. By the way, the design makes me think of my GT, but with 4 doors - look at both from the side view.

Thanks!
Chris

[DJ]

Congratulations! Looks like you got a nice car for a really good price. If it had been closer to me I would have bid on it just 'cuz I tend to like the odd stuff. Would love to have a Fulvia sedan, too.

FWIW, I have a 1977 Sedan Owners Manual in case you don't get one with the car. I also have a 1979 wiring diagram manual and a factory Technical Data manual that covers the '75-'78 Sedan. Don't know how much difference there was between all the years but the info may be useful. I won't part with the manuals but intend to scan them and make them available in the DL section. That will likely take me a while yet but I'm happy to look up anything you may need and even scan individual pages if you need.

The Haynes manual would be useful for you and you'll find them available on eBay from time to time. Again, I can provide info from mine if you need. I've never run across a factory manual specifically for the Sedan but if you find one I'd suggest you also get it.

[davidb]

I 2ND congrads! As for the timing belt just be certain if it is a 1800 cc
or two liter. Some folks say there is a difference in the tooth count.
Vastly more easy than changing the serpentine, bicycle belt/chain on
an Alfa. Leather in a Sedan, never heard of that. Good luck & enjoy!

[Jim Keller]

Welcome and congrats! it sure seems to be a very nice example

If you have Alfa experiance, you'll be ok with the Beta.......at least once you figure out which panels and/or parts to remove to work on different items in the engine bay, it's packed pretty tight!

I have a factory Lancia Beta Specifications and Repair Instructions manual, and I also have a factory Lancia Emission Control System manual that covers 75 thru 79 I do not need if you want them, I would like $10 for the pair plus postage

[davidb]

If you need Sedan specific part #s [body/trim/suspension, etc.] I have
a Mitchell manual. I think SubGothis does too. Need help, contact us.
Often having the EXACT factory part # is invaluable.

[67alloy]

Congrats on your purchase. You have an interesting car.

[ckeen74]

Thanks for the congratulations and offers of assistance!

So I went and test drove the car yesterday, although I haven't taken delivery since he still needs to get it to pass smog. It's very tight, and all the bits I didn't get to see the first time around seem good. The only caveats are the seat stitching (seats are real leather, I checked), the front suspension is a bit on the squishy side, and it's running a bit less than ideally, I think because he's got it set up to pass smog. Apparently it got a rebuilt head back in '97 when the timing belt snapped. All the electrical stuff appears to work, with the exception of the wiper switch - he replaced the column switches with scorpion stalks because the headlight switch no longer worked, but the wiper switch connector didn't match up... so I guess I'll be on the lookout for a suitable replacement. And all the door seals, etc. are new-looking.

Anybody know if Lancia, in the spirit of engineering wackyness, decided the windows should be lifted by gears or a cable system? I was trying out the windows and they made a noise kinda like gears that needed lubricating, but I may just be imagining things.

They're not terribly fast cars, are they.... maybe it's because it's a 1.8 liter lugging a sedan body around :)

[67alloy]

Hi Chris,

Yes, my car came with leather too. Thick hides, but the stitching is the downfall. Easily enough repaired I would think.

The power windows utilize an impossibly small electric motor with a gear drive that moves a semi-rigid spiraled metal track. It rides within a carrier track. They are prone to failure.

On Ebay you can sometimes find the emergency window crank as supplied by Lancia. It is a crank that threads into a hole in the window motor and allows you to open and close the window. This may help to exercise the motor/track assembly if it is just frozen up. It requires too many cranks to roll up and down, so it is not really practical for daily use.

Best bet would be to refit with manual window regulators (if you could find them), second bet take the door panels off, clean up the motors and tracks and hope for results, third bet try to retrofit some kind of more modern motor that would accept the geared tooth/track arrangement.

I would also check the switches themselves if you are not getting any current whatsoever. Mine were placed on the console between the two seats and were really gunked up. Those switches are cheap and have tenuous contacts at best.

[DJ]

On Ebay you can sometimes find the emergency window crank as supplied by Lancia. It is a crank that threads into a hole in the window motor and allows you to open and close the window.

Like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lancia-Beta-Electric-Window-Manual-Crank-New-Original_W0QQitemZ190244765160QQcmdZViewItem?hash= item190244765160&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245) one. :)

[ckeen74]

Luckily, my car has manual windows... this sounds silly, but the winder action felt more "positive" than a cable system normally does, that's why I ask.

[davidb]

Consider yourself fortunate having manual windows. I bought my new
'78 w/one option: A/C. No power steering, no sunroof, no auto trans-
mission, no power windows. Worked out for the best. Power windows
on these cars a major pain even w/new regulators and/or motors while
restoring. The A/C in my '78 Sedan worked well, quirky but well. I don't
think Lancia got a reliable A/C system until the '81/'82 Coupes/Zagatos.

[DJ]

The A/C in my '78 Sedan worked well, quirky but well. I don't think Lancia got a reliable A/C system until the '81/'82 Coupes/Zagatos.

There's actually a factory fix for the AC system in the Beta service letters (http://lancisti.net/index.php?ind=downloads&op=entry_view&iden=4) document we've been discussing recently. Ohhhh, that's right. David can't read that document on his computer... 8)

[67alloy]

My mistake, I dont know why I assumed you had power windows....:confused:

Anyway, you are lucky, just take the door panels off and lubricate the tracks. They should be fine. They do give a more positive feel than traditional cable and winder; they are more akin to a gear mechanism.

[SubGothius]

Big 'gratz on the new berlina -- I'm envious! :)

I started describing a timing-belt change here, but the longer it got, I would up deciding that should go in its own, dedicated thread for others to find more easily as a future reference:

http://lancisti.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2404

You will definitely want to get a Haynes manual. The factory/dealer shop manual can come in handy as well, at least as a "second opinion" or for really odd jobs not covered by Haynes, and for more specific tasks that may be tricky to suss out from Haynes' comprehensive tear-down/rebuild approach; however, it references a lot of specialized dealer-issue tools and separate publications (e.g. for torque specs!), so it's not terribly useful on its own for the home enthusiast mechanic. There are also plenty of supplementary dealer-issue publications that can be immensely helpful; fortunately, many of those are posted in the Beta Downloads section of this site! :D

[ckeen74]

So I just picked up the car last night (finally!), and I think I've found out why it didn't exactly fly off the shelves back in '78....
- in the car's files was the original window sticker, listing the price as $9012, including leather seats and a catalytic converter as options
- in the car's manual, the power is stated as 83hp (86hp for you lucky 49-state types)
So adjusting for inflation, we're talking $30K for an 83hp car! That said, aside from a bit of a miss in acceleration, it does pull pretty decently, and the engine sounds good overall.

Also found various documents going back to 1979... seems the original owner was Bahram (aka Barry) Nour Omid, and the second one was Robert Silva... each had it a bit more than 10 years (anybody know this car? or the former owners?) It also has a fairly recent clutch & valve job, based on mileage... so far so good!

On another happy note, I was filling up for the first time and someone (an ex-lancia owner) already asked me about it... so this should be interesting.

[Jim Keller]

Ha ha ha, yep! filling up gets lots of looks, coments and questions I have found over the years, not every fill up will come with verbal questions or coments, but all will come with "looks" of curiosity and question at a min! LOL

I find it entertaining