My Squirt

[Scott H]

I have posted parts of the install of my Megasquirt but I thought I would do a soup-to-nuts version.

There are two big reasons for me to have done the MS, cost and the satisfaction of doing this. The satisfaction part is why I titled this My Squirt and anyone who has been over the the MSforums (msefi.com) can quickly see the passion and frustration of those who are in the middle of their own MS install. The cost side of any EFI conversion can be a bit deceiving. Yes, the MS itself is pretty inexpensive as compared to other stand-alone systems. That is just the beginning. I think I spent as much of fuel lines, fittings, pump, and regulator as I did on the MS ECU. It will add up quickly.

Let's get started. The basic idea was to convert to EFI with a few project objectives. I wanted:
- A stand-alone system that was tunable.
- A simple system that had reliability
- The ability to adapt this to future plans. 2.0 turbo and E85
- As many OEM parts as possible
- Easy to work on, diagnose future problems, and repair if needed

With those laid out the first choice was an EFI system. I have looked at so many I don't know exactly how many at this point. The price and adaptability of Megasquirt made the clear front runner. Check.

The manifold was equally investigated but there were only three options:
-Beta EFI - I really don't like the hose-on-injector design mostly because there are few options for flow rates. The manifold gets in the way of the shifter. NG
- FIAT Spider - same injector as the Beta. The plenum does not allow the engine cover to close. NG
- Custom - This satisfies all of my objectives except it will end up taking a ton of time to make.

With the ECU and manifold identified I am ready to get going. I start by collecting parts. There are really not very many at the beginning. Throttle body, sensors, and injectors are about it. I started on the manifold and ended up fabricating at last count 17 different parts. Just the manifold base has 9 pieces to it.

These are the first few pieces.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/1a.JPG

From the top is the fuel rail. A blank was ordered from Ross Machine and the holes drilled at the correct spacing. On the left is the end plate that supports the RH sides of the plenum and fuel rail. Center is the new generator pulley and the throttle body mount next to it. The bottom is the intake flange with runners welded in. You can't tell from this angle but the injector bungs are also there. Those started off from Ross Machine as well.

The above photo was taken so I knew what parts I was giving to the plating co. With large plating co. my fear was that a small custom parts could get lost. This way we both know what parts I dropped off. Gold anodized!

With the way the plenum will fit the generator will have to find a new home. While I am at it I might as well upgrade to something with a lot more output and a million times better reliability. Here is a trial fit on a 2.0 liter I have in the wings.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/3.JPG


This is like those cooking shows where you get to pull the finished product out of the oven and say, Wahh Lahhh!!
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/1b.JPG

I think I have somewhere around 100 hours in this. The welding was done by a friend since I sold my TIG. I figured I sucked too bad at aluminum welding and that for $1,300 I could get all the welding done for me I could ever fantasize about. Jeff did not charge me though.

Take a look at the temp sensors and there is also a fuel pressure tap. That was from an older GM (Gag). They use that thread size which happens to be the same as my old R12 A/C gage set. Time to dig it out and re-purpose it. The TB is from an older Camry, what else! 55mm of raw power. It came from a 2.5 liter V6 from way back. Already equipped with a cool Denso TPS. Peeking up from the back is the throttle cable bracket. On the other side are two vacuum ports for the MAP sensor/FP regulator. And one for the fast idle.

The MS ecu gets mounted under the seat. Probably not a good place if your windows leak. Then again if your windows leak why would you be doing this?
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/4.JPG

[Scott H]

The pass through for the battery cable is a good place for the MS wire harness and the vacuum hose for the MAP.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/5.JPG


Old carb gone. Lot's of room in there.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/6.JPG

The first part to go on is the modified oil filter block with new generator.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/7.JPG

The scariest part of all of this was the first fit of the intake. I had measured and measured and did a mock up on the bench engine. This is the first fit on the car.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/8.JPG

[Scott H]

The most time consuming part of the install for me is the wiring. I am pretty particular about it and the time it took shows that.

The fuse block gets wired here. You can see the three relays I use towards the left.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/9.JPG

Fuse block in and now the MS harness gets brought in. Time to merge it to the Scorpion's harness and to the engine.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/500/medium/P1010022.JPG


Some detail on the relays. A heat shrink labeler adds a nice touch if/when you need to diagnose. I have used this a few time to power up the WBO2 already.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/101.JPG

[Scott H]

Some pics from a little while later.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/12.JPG

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/13.JPG

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/14.JPG

It's running now and there is a very nice improvement in the overall driveability. Start up is really nice! Power is up but I have not taken it to the dyno yet so say how much. There are still a couple spots on the tuning I want to do. I have just enjoyed driving it and not even attempted to get the last couple things looked at. I will shortly.

All of the parts for an EDIS ignition conversion are waiting on the shelf. Likely a winter project at this point. There are a few interior electrical projects that will get done about the same time I figure.

>Scott

[Darren]

Hi Scott,

I've been watching this project with interest, both here and on the megasquirt forums. The quality of the work you've done is fantastic! I love the carbon plenum, and it is a neat solution.

I am in the process of putting the parts together myself for a similar project. Like you, I am going EDIS route, but will install it at the same time as the megasquirt. Fingers crossed I should get my bag of bits tomorrow so I can start building the ECU.

Is there any particular reason you went direct port injection with a single throttle body? I am going a slightly different route - Suzuki GSXR FI injection bodies, probably using the MH DCOE airbox - if I don't fab up something myself. It is amazing how the price racks up when you start adding all the bits and pieces together! I will post up my progress when I make a start on it all. I need to clean the 'spare' Monte so I can use it as a test bed to get all the necessary bits fitted.

What did you do about a swirl pot - I couldn't see one in the pics. Great work by the way! I know where to come when I get stuck!! ;o))

Cheers

[Will]

Looking good, Scott!

How did you shape the plenum, did you build it over foam? Let us know how that works out- I'm looking for a good resin system for making the belly pans. The West System Epoxy I used for the carbon fiber interior panels on my car are started yellowing after about three or four years, and are now (9 years later) looking like they might warrant being painted over. The only non-yellowing resins I know of are casting resins, and they seem to be predominantly polyester (which I refuse to make anything out of anymore)

Are you going to use the Motorcraft coilpacks or coil-on-plug?

[Scott H]

I am in the process of putting the parts together myself for a similar project. Like you, I am going EDIS route, but will install it at the same time as the megasquirt. Cheers

If you have a distributor now I would keep it and make the changes in stages. You will have some issues and it is much easier to deal with one known and one unknown. Not knowing if you have an ignition problem or a fuel problem can be tough. Having a problem with both systems at the same time will be even tougher.

Is there any particular reason you went direct port injection with a single throttle body? I am going a slightly different route - Suzuki GSXR FI injection bodies, probably using the MH DCOE airbox.

I bought a set of R1 throttles with the same idea you have. There were a couple deal breakers for me. The throttles are really close together and would require a some pretty sharp bends in the runners to get to the outer cylinders. Far from symmetrical. Second, individual TBs don't have a stable vacuum for a MAP system. Most bikes are alpha-N using RPM and TPS. A great system but is not as adaptable to changes. People who have used MS with ITBs usually have had difficulties.

What did you do about a swirl pot - I couldn't see one in the pics
I did not use one. I spoke with Ken Haven to see what he used. He didn't have one and so far I have been fine without. I have run the fuel level pretty low and it has not starved.

I would be glad to help. John Allen was a big help as has the msefi.com forum. I have spoken with a few people with other standalone systems and at some point everyone needs some questions answered. I think the MS may be the best in this regard. There are some out there who do offer great support but you pay dearly for the system/service.

Best of Luck!
Scott

[Scott H]

How did you shape the plenum, did you build it over foam? Let us know how that works out- I'm looking for a good resin system for making the belly pans. The West System Epoxy I used for the carbon fiber interior panels on my car are started yellowing after about three or four years, and are now (9 years later) looking like they might warrant being painted over.

Pink foam from Lowe's! I used West Systems too. It is my understanding that it yellows with UV. I hope the engine doesn't get much UV because that would mean that the engine cover is open way too much - HA. I used a knife and then a grater to smooth it out. Purple latex paint was painted first followed by gloss black. Hey, the purple is what was on the shelf from my daughter's room.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/bare_foam.JPG

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/P1010014.JPG

Two cans of brake clean later and the foam was in the bucket. I think I had about 10 hours trying different shapes. All melted away in about 5 minutes. I looked at the engines that I thought do a good job with performance to get the concept of the shape.
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/P1010028.JPG


Are you going to use the Motorcraft coilpacks or coil-on-plug?

I have both sets of parts on my shelf with only my mind to be made up. Some of it will depend on how adventuresome I feel. The COPs are still somewhat new for MS with each person making headway. On the otherhand there are tons of people who have done the EDIS. I just want to drive it right now and I'll look into it more when I make the change. Likely this winter. That is the thing about MS, what is not available today may be shortly. If you are wanting to do an MS system I would suggest waiting to the last moment as it very well may be improved.

Thanks for the compliments!
Scott

[Will]

I've had an MSII for my car sitting here for a number of years and decided I really need sequential (not yet released, been forever). Meanwhile I've helped install a couple of the MSII's, so I know my way around them.

Although, I've recently been so impressed with the PML hipa-drive package If I stumble upon a bag of money I may forego an IC engine altogether! It does everything the Tesla can't (like regenerative braking), it looks like total cake as far as the install goes and it's the future, man. (Plus sub 4 sec 0-60 is kinda cool!) I think this wouild be an awesome install in a Scorpion with a little tweaking of the Hi-Pa drive code for the modded Scorpion's corner weights. If you aren't familiar with the system, take a look at the QED mini cooper.

[1,6 HF]

...does everything the Tesla can't (like regenerative braking), ...

not that it matters much to this discussion, but Tesla does indeed use regen braking; I just did an event with 2 of them (and a couple of tech support guys) two weekends ago.

[Will]

not that it matters much to this discussion, but Tesla does indeed use regen braking; I just did an event with 2 of them (and a couple of tech support guys) two weekends ago.

Well, that must be new- or else there's a rather perplexing riddle here. I have here on my desk the new Fortune Magazine "Tech Special" issue, and it has the Tesla on the cover. Inside, there's a picture of the Tesla with the rear wheel removed and there is unmistakably a brake rotor on par with the size of a conventional item. Since regen braking eliminates brake rotors and the item pictured is clearly too large for a "parking brake" type accessory, (and I'm sure it's not decorative) it makes me wonder why it is there. Unless there is only some sort of "limited" regen braking on the car.

the Fortune article is sadly more about the Ebarhard and Musk boardroom backstory- what event were you at and what were your impressions, Ed?

Mine is that it's sexy looking and too damn expensive- by comparison the in-wheel PML drives really seem like the cat's meow (other than a little extra unsprung wieght)- especially for retrofitting. GM's been working along similar lines for a long time, I guess we'll have to see how it turns out.

edit>> swirl pot in a Scorpion? The Scorpion tank IS a swirl pot! If I took the tasnk out of my pickup and stood it ON END it would look like the scorpion tank! :)

[Darren]

If you have a distributor now I would keep it and make the changes in stages. You will have some issues and it is much easier to deal with one known and one unknown. Not knowing if you have an ignition problem or a fuel problem can be tough. Having a problem with both systems at the same time will be even tougher. Scott

Hmm, you may well have a point there. I would have preferred to do the EDIS first, but then I'd need the MS to run it! I suppose I could work out a way of running them in tandem with some way of quickly swapping them over.


I bought a set of R1 throttles with the same idea you have. There were a couple deal breakers for me. The throttles are really close together and would require a some pretty sharp bends in the runners to get to the outer cylinders. Far from symmetrical. Second, individual TBs don't have a stable vacuum for a MAP system. Most bikes are alpha-N using RPM and TPS. A great system but is not as adaptable to changes. People who have used MS with ITBs usually have had difficulties.Scott

I've gone with early GSXR throttle bodies because they are easily detached into single units and then attached to whatever designed manifold. I guess MAP sensor is more important with forced induction, but not so important with N/A. I guess the other thing is dependent on altitude and that's not really a factor for me. would you have drpped the MAP if you were going N/A only?


I did not use one. I spoke with Ken Haven to see what he used. He didn't have one and so far I have been fine without. I have run the fuel level pretty low and it has not starved.Scott

interesting point - why have one just because everyone else has one? Do you just have one high pressure pump where the original one was?

I would be glad to help. John Allen was a big help as has the msefi.com forum. I have spoken with a few people with other standalone systems and at some point everyone needs some questions answered. I think the MS may be the best in this regard. There are some out there who do offer great support but you pay dearly for the system/service.

Best of Luck!
Scott

- Thanks mate, I'm still ploughing though all the info. It is confusing but the buzz of doing it yourself has got to be worth the effort!! ;o)) I can't wait to get cracking!

I assume that I could use the same method you used for your plenum to make an airbox?

Cheers

[Darren]

swirl pot in a Scorpion? The Scorpion tank IS a swirl pot! If I took the tasnk out of my pickup and stood it ON END it would look like the scorpion tank! :)

Hi Will - I don't follow what you mean by your statement. Are you saying the standard tank is desgined so you don't need one or your pickup's tank should replace the standard tank?

[Scott H]

I've had an MSII for my car sitting here for a number of years and decided I really need sequential (not yet released, been forever).

Will,

I am curious as to why you say you really want seqeuntial? The benefits are really not that significant and likely unattainable to the mortals. It wasn't until the OEMs had to that they went that way. Mostly emissions and the ability to shut off the fuel during a miss fire were two biggies.

Hell, at 1,200 rpm the injector is pulsing 10/second. Just how much *puddling* is occurring. I seriously doubt most of us have the resources to be able to tune a sequential system to optimize it above the batch fire.

>Scott

[Scott H]

Hmm, you may well have a point there. I would have preferred to do the EDIS first, but then I'd need the MS to run it! I suppose I could work out a way of running them in tandem with some way of quickly swapping them over.

Since a distributor just needs a switched power to the coil I am leaving it in place. Well, that is mostly true. When I wired the MS I added a Main relay to handle all of the ignition switched components; injectors, fast idle, ignition (coil now, EDIS later). So, my coil is powered right now by a relay that the old coil feed wire (blue/black wire) operates. It has a separate fuse too.

When it is time to do the switch I can install the EDIS then remove the distributor and coil.

There is one issue with the MS. Diodes D1 and D2 are typically not installed for those running a crank sensor. If you connect the coil (-) to the MS rpm input you will damage resistor R12. My MS does not have D1 or D2 internally. Mine are external out near the coil. So I can swap it. No, I did not learn this the easy way...


I've gone with early GSXR throttle bodies because they are easily detached into single units and then attached to whatever designed manifold. I guess MAP sensor is more important with forced induction, but not so important with N/A. I guess the other thing is dependent on altitude and that's not really a factor for me. would you have dropped the MAP if you were going N/A only?

The MAP sensor is critical to the running of the MS for both NA and forced induction. All of the normal fuel calculations come from the VE table which has RPM on one axis and MAP on the other. If it is does not see a stable and accurate reading, your fuel mixture will be all over the place too.

I really think you need to look into this further. John Allen told me he fought ITBs and finally gave up. I had made my decision before talking with John but he confirmed my thoughts. You may want to speak with him. ITBs can offer some benefit but without the proper tuned length/diameter of the intake runner, can any of this be really optimized? I was not going to be building multiple intakes to get mine right. I copied as much as I could from engines that I though had a reasonable amount of confidence were tuned right from the beginning. Yes, there are engine out there that never have had even basic flow measurements done to the intake tract. CFD is completely unheard of :eek:.

My fuel pump is mounted on the x-member just in front of the trans. It is connected straight from the tank on one end and then to the fuel filter and then rail on the other. The regulator is after the rail.

Here is a pic without the fuel lines. Fuel under pressure goes from left to right.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/Notes.jpg

Keep asking lots of questions here and at the MS forum. It will save you $$ and time.

>Scott

[Scott H]

Well, that must be new- or else there's a rather perplexing riddle here. I have here on my desk the new Fortune Magazine "Tech Special" issue, and it has the Tesla on the cover. Inside, there's a picture of the Tesla with the rear wheel removed and there is unmistakably a brake rotor on par with the size of a conventional item. Since regen braking eliminates brake rotors and the item pictured is clearly too large for a "parking brake" type accessory, (and I'm sure it's not decorative) it makes me wonder why it is there. Unless there is only some sort of "limited" regen braking on the car.

Will,

I don't now too much about the Tesla but I do know quite a bit about the system that carries most of the patents for regen. There is most definitely still a complete hydraulic friction braking system on all of our hybrid cars. Regen can and does provide a good portion of normal braking. Panic stops and braking below a few MPH still need friction brakes. The hydraulic system is a backup for the electric too. These are all brake-by-wire systems with a hydraulic backup system.

Brake life goes up considerably if you stay in the regen range of stopping. About a month ago I had left my car in the lot at work and did not drive it for 2-3 weeks. The first time I go to drive it there was some slight surface rust on the rotor. Typical. I drove for 16 miles, 10 freeway, 6 surface road. When I stopped, not all of the surface rust was off yet. Five miles later it was.

>Scott

[1,6 HF]

Well, that must be new- or else there's a rather perplexing riddle here. I have here on my desk the new Fortune Magazine "Tech Special" issue, and it has the Tesla on the cover. Inside, there's a picture of the Tesla with the rear wheel removed and there is unmistakably a brake rotor on par with the size of a conventional item. Since regen braking eliminates brake rotors and the item pictured is clearly too large for a "parking brake" type accessory, (and I'm sure it's not decorative) it makes me wonder why it is there. Unless there is only some sort of "limited" regen braking on the car.

the Fortune article is sadly more about the Ebarhard and Musk boardroom backstory- what event were you at and what were your impressions, Ed?

Will,

Here's the relevant section from the Tesla web site: http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/charging_and_batteries.php

The Petersen Automotive Museum has a group that supports the museum with higher dues levels, fundraising events, and such. Along with the usual gala events, there are some driving events, one of which takes place between the 4th of July and Bastille Day. It starts at the museum, heads to the Pacific, runs maybe 40 miles up the coast, cuts back inland onto the far end of Mulholland Highway, and ends in the hills of Malibu at the 'ranch' of one of the members. All the cars are parked on the lawns, and there's a lunch. There's always an amazing mix of cars; this year saw everything from the host's '30s Delage to a Maserati MC12 (which was running on a temporary road permit). A local high-end dealer added some sponsorship, and displayed a couple of Rolls and Lambos, but another sponsor this year was Tesla, and they brought two of the prototypes. It was at least the third time I'd seen one--they're impressively engineered cars--but it was the first time I'd followed one on the road. The pair of them started only a few cars ahead of me, and I ended up following them for the whole run up PCH and back through the hills. On the tight bits of Mulholland (at which point I was separated from them only by a badly-driven Z4), they seemed to handle the turns exactly like the slightly-heavier, but torque-ier Lotus Elise that they are--probably a little less nimble than a stock Elise. At the lunch, they were offering drives, but I didn't get to take advantage of that, so no direct driving impressions--sorry.

[Will]

Will,

I don't now too much about the Tesla but I do know quite a bit about the system that carries most of the patents for regen. There is most definitely still a complete hydraulic friction braking system on all of our hybrid cars. Regen can and does provide a good portion of normal braking. Panic stops and braking below a few MPH still need friction brakes. The hydraulic system is a backup for the electric too. These are all brake-by-wire systems with a hydraulic backup system.

Brake life goes up considerably if you stay in the regen range of stopping. About a month ago I had left my car in the lot at work and did not drive it for 2-3 weeks. The first time I go to drive it there was some slight surface rust on the rotor. Typical. I drove for 16 miles, 10 freeway, 6 surface road. When I stopped, not all of the surface rust was off yet. Five miles later it was.

>Scott

I don't think you need hydraulic brakes in an EV except as potential redundancy. I don't think the HiPa drives use anything but straight electric (they have a parking brake option). I believe they use a large internal shunt resistor to dissipate energy if the battery won't take any more in, and they claim to have 100 percent holding torque at zero speed, if I read correctly. I wasn't being super-careful in my interpretation though.


Sequential injection: is the smart way IMO to handle individual injector trim, doesn't work on a B2B system and I don't want to go through injector swapping to change flow rates. The Abarth intake manidfold is a shitty log-style thing that is the same as the standard volumexes, there is no way that can't benefit from some injector tuning since it's highly unlikely that the same air charge is making it into each hole. Eventually they changed the design, in the 037 Evo2, but those parts don't fit, even if you could find them- they only fit the 16V head.

http://www.savetheledges.org/test/AVS/sc.html

See the blower-to-head manifold? Garbage, I tell ya....

yeah, needs an update. I know, but I'm moving servers.

[Darren]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the response and apologies for the time taken to get back to you. Holidays and other things intervened! How is your install going? All up and running ok now?

Since a distributor just needs a switched power to the coil I am leaving it in place. Well, that is mostly true. When I wired the MS I added a Main relay to handle all of the ignition switched components; injectors, fast idle, ignition (coil now, EDIS later). So, my coil is powered right now by a relay that the old coil feed wire (blue/black wire) operates. It has a separate fuse too.

When it is time to do the switch I can install the EDIS then remove the distributor and coil.

There is one issue with the MS. Diodes D1 and D2 are typically not installed for those running a crank sensor. If you connect the coil (-) to the MS rpm input you will damage resistor R12. My MS does not have D1 or D2 internally. Mine are external out near the coil. So I can swap it. No, I did not learn this the easy way...

Thanks for the heads up on that - I've now built the relay pack up and set that aside. I've still got to clean the spare car ready to start siting pieces and getting cable runs ready. I'm not sure where I'm going to put the ecu - probably on the rear firewall behind the passenger seat - I wouldn't be happy going with an under the chair install due to a couple of fords nearby and some deep puddles in winter time! ;o)


The MAP sensor is critical to the running of the MS for both NA and forced induction. All of the normal fuel calculations come from the VE table which has RPM on one axis and MAP on the other. If it is does not see a stable and accurate reading, your fuel mixture will be all over the place too.

I really think you need to look into this further. John Allen told me he fought ITBs and finally gave up. I had made my decision before talking with John but he confirmed my thoughts. You may want to speak with him. ITBs can offer some benefit but without the proper tuned length/diameter of the intake runner, can any of this be really optimized? I was not going to be building multiple intakes to get mine right. I copied as much as I could from engines that I though had a reasonable amount of confidence were tuned right from the beginning. Yes, there are engine out there that never have had even basic flow measurements done to the intake tract. CFD is completely unheard of :eek:.

Hmm, I have done a lot of reading bearing in mind your comment and have found nothing to support that. On the extraefi site, buried in one of the manuals somewhere I quote

'If you have individual throttle bodies (ITB's) or a very lumpy cam that produces no vacuum at idle (this can be seen in MegaTune when the map sensor is plumbed in) say it has a higher KPa than 65 - 75 KPa, then you should go over to Alpha_N. This uses the TPS as the load reference rather than the manifold pressure.

With a boosted engine using Alpha_N, you MUST use the hybrid_Alpha_N setting with MegaSquirt, because the throttle position bears little relationship to the amount of air going into the engine. Alpha_N is for naturally aspirated engines ONLY. The hyrid_Alpha_N adds the MAP value into the fueling algorithm, (obviously the map sensor will need to be connected to the inlet manifold, so fueling is increased with boost pressure.


My fuel pump is mounted on the x-member just in front of the trans. It is connected straight from the tank on one end and then to the fuel filter and then rail on the other. The regulator is after the rail.'

I think I also read in Dave Walker's engine management that MAP was not required in addition to TPS and Alpha_N. I have an Innovate LC-1 to take care of that side of things, so I should be ok.

As far as tuned lengths are concerned, I had a look over the Jenvey site, who make the expensive throttle bodies (www.jenvey.co.uk (http://www.jenvey.co.uk)) and under the FAQ, I found the following

'What is the correct overall system length?
Induction length is one of the most important aspects of fuelling performance engines.
In our experience an under-length system is the greatest cause of disapointment, with loss of up to 1/3 of power potential. There are a number of good books on the subject and the serious developer is referred to these and, in particular, dyno trials. A guide figure, from the face of the trumpet to the centre of the valve head is 350mm for a 9,000 RPM engine. Other RPM are proportional, i.e. for 18,000 RPM the figure is ca 175mm.
Any air feed system to an airbox or filter can have a large effect on the power curve and must be considered carefully - particularly if the airbox is small.
The induction system is part of a resonant whole - from air inlet or trumpet to exhaust outlet - and the ideal length is heavily influenced by the other components.'

I was thinking of shooting for 370mm length and going from there. Any adjustments could be made in the trumpet length, but we'll see. I'm not aiming for the ultimately tuned engine - I don't have the time or the funds to be honest - I just want to get out there and enjoy the thing! ;o))

There seem to be a lot of folks on this side of the pond that have made ITB's and FI work, and hopefully I'll be able to too! I'll have to take some pics and get my thread started!


Here is a pic without the fuel lines. Fuel under pressure goes from left to right.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/875/medium/Notes.jpg

Keep asking lots of questions here and at the MS forum. It will save you $$ and time.

>Scott

Thanks for the pointers mate - I'll keep you posted on progress here and over on the MS forum. Hoping to have it all sorted for spring next year!

Cheers

[HF Stinger]

Sequential injection: is the smart way IMO to handle individual injector trim, doesn't work on a B2B system and I don't want to go through injector swapping to change flow rates. The Abarth intake manidfold is a shitty log-style thing that is the same as the standard volumexes, there is no way that can't benefit from some injector tuning since it's highly unlikely that the same air charge is making it into each hole. Eventually they changed the design, in the 037 Evo2, but those parts don't fit, even if you could find them- they only fit the 16V head.

Will, if you are interested in stand alone sequential injection check out: http://www.034motorsport.com/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=u0o2keip11bkv2329ro4hk9712

They are big in the Audi / VW world, but continue to grow in all directions. I run the IIc setup in my 83 UrQuattro. Ken Haven has been to their facility for some dyno tuning and was considering switching to their system himself when I visited him this spring.

Im not going to blatantly advertise for them, however their Ic and IIc systems allow for crank triggered timing accurate to 1/4 degree and complete individual control of sequential injection. The Ic would suffice for 4 cylinder applications where you only want two GPO's (general purpose output) but for more cylinders (or multiple injectors) you can run the IIc and have access to 4 GPO's (useful for boost control, fuel pump, cooling fan, water injection, you get the picture)

Does it cost more than MS? Yep. Its truly future-proof design though with lots of headroom built in for new features, including wideband tuning as of the next firmware update.

Not to hyjack - Scott Im really bummed that we couldn't connect during my work trip a couple months ago. I spent a good part of that week dodging tornados and being dragged from one family function to another. There is a real good chance that I will be back in Sept (champaign/urbana) but I will again add some weekends on to my work trip.

Im real excited to see the MS in action. Im getting real comfortable with the operation of the 034 system but it may be a bit robust for my intentions on my next Scorpion. ...which I think I have located in NorCal.

[Scott H]

Sequential injection: is the smart way IMO to handle individual injector trim <snip>

Will,

You have been reading too much again - <GRIN>.

The theory of individual cylinder tuning of the AFR is WAY over rated. Once the concept of the fuel system's mission is better understood it becomes more apparent.

Fuel control has one function, to control cylinder temperature. Period. If it is a bit rich, MPG suffers. Lean, you melt things or detonate. There is a happy place that nearly any modern tunable EFI system is capable of. The different systems make it easier/harder and offer more/less goodies but the basic fuel control is a pretty easy deal. Hence Megasquirt.

Take a car on a dyno and bump the AFR a few points rich and then go a few points lean. WHP will not change. If you go way lean ouside of the margin that should have been tuned in you will see issues with detonation. EGT will move. Fuel consumption will change. Emissions will vary. HP will not.

So, to go to a huge effort to get each cylinder to some magical perfect number is an exercise that will reap a small amount of MPG and a slight emission improvement. Not power. MPG and emissions are both huge when you are chasing CARB/EPA and CAFE goals.

It will cost you more in dyno time than your car is worth.

<Yes, that last statement is a bit of an exageration. But not by much. :D>

>Scott

[Scott H]

I'm not sure where I'm going to put the ecu - probably on the rear firewall behind the passenger seat - I wouldn't be happy going with an under the chair install due to a couple of fords nearby and some deep puddles in winter time! ;o)

There are a few Chevys across the street from me. Maybe I should move my ECU. HA!

Darren, the thing I like so much about MS is there are so many people out there who have done all of these different installs. ITBs to me just seem to be a lot of work for the return. They look and sound amazing though!!

The length of the intake is where the dark magic really starts. You can read a ton and still feel like you are an idiot. There are more contradictions in print on what is the best method that it makes my head hurt. When the F1 teams use outside sources to get their intake systems truly right it tells me that I will never get it. Not that I need to be at that level but the concepts are still more complex than a simple CFD (if that's simple) can develop. So, I went to the look-around-a-lot-and-copy-from-those-who-are-doing-a-good-job.

There are many ways to get to the air flow goal and I would say that within our means and for our goals that there many paths.

The car is running incredibly well until I drive it for a while. I have a little lean condition creeping in on longer drives. I just did a few data captures and am looking at them in Mega Log Viewer. I have a couple ideas that I will work on this weekend.

>Scott

[Scott H]

Im not going to blatantly advertise for them, however their Ic and IIc systems allow for crank triggered timing accurate to 1/4 degree and complete individual control of sequential injection.

<snip>

Not to hyjack - Scott Im really bummed that we couldn't connect during my work trip a couple months ago. I spent a good part of that week dodging tornados and being dragged from one family function to another. There is a real good chance that I will be back in Sept (champaign/urbana) but I will again add some weekends on to my work trip.

Sean,

The 034 stuff is awesome and the timing is where the power is. There is a lot to be said for what they are doing. I wonder how much support they offer on non-VW stuff.

I have travelled so I understand. 10# in a 5# schedule. I am around Sept. except for the MotoGP at Indy.

>Scott

[HF Stinger]

Sean,

The 034 stuff is awesome and the timing is where the power is. There is a lot to be said for what they are doing. I wonder how much support they offer on non-VW stuff.
>Scott

Scott they are VERY supportive of the non VAG community. They started out as a single-man operation and have grown considerably due to their follow up support. To successfully run a business in Northern California you can't appeal to a single-market and they have broadened their interests greatly.

There is a large community of 034 EFI guys that hang out on www.motorgeek.com There doesn't seem to be a single issue from anyone that gets posted there that goes unresolved. Motorgeek is hosted/sponsored by 034 but there are also alot of MS guys that hang there too. Incredible resources on that site...

Ken may be able to give some insight on them as he was actually tuning a system that wasn't their product, and if I remember his opinion of their abilities was a good one.

[Will]

Will,

You have been reading too much again - <GRIN>.

The theory of individual cylinder tuning of the AFR is WAY over rated. Once the concept of the fuel system's mission is better understood it becomes more apparent.

Fuel control has one function, to control cylinder temperature. Period. If it is a bit rich, MPG suffers. Lean, you melt things or detonate. There is a happy place that nearly any modern tunable EFI system is capable of. The different systems make it easier/harder and offer more/less goodies but the basic fuel control is a pretty easy deal. Hence Megasquirt.

Take a car on a dyno and bump the AFR a few points rich and then go a few points lean. WHP will not change. If you go way lean ouside of the margin that should have been tuned in you will see issues with detonation. EGT will move. Fuel consumption will change. Emissions will vary. HP will not.

So, to go to a huge effort to get each cylinder to some magical perfect number is an exercise that will reap a small amount of MPG and a slight emission improvement. Not power. MPG and emissions are both huge when you are chasing CARB/EPA and CAFE goals.

It will cost you more in dyno time than your car is worth.

<Yes, that last statement is a bit of an exageration. But not by much. :D>

>Scott

This is all well and good as far as mechanics 101 goes, Scott, and for an engine that has an equal charge in each hole I'd tend to agree. The problem is that the people that I've talked to say the volumex does NOT. For a carbed or TBI scenario, the difference would obviously present predominantly as a dynamic compression issue, but for MPI the same issue would obviously translate to a mixture issue. And even with the carbed version, IIRC Tom had some issues where his plugs weren't matching up.

This leaves sequential injection or a lot of trial and error swapping out injectors. The former sounds to me like a more elegant solution than the latter. Particularly since it would be possible to destroy an engine with a combined AFR that was reading adequately rich.

And, I do have enough other hobbies that I'm not missing playing (auto) mechanic at the moment. So a bit of a wait is no big deal.

[John Allen]

The problem is that the people that I've talked to say the volumex does NOT.

Will, keep in mind that much of the Volumex issues revolve around the manifold being a 'wet' system. The fuel falls out of suspension and can't make the flow changes the Volumex manifold creats. I suspect that a port injected Volumex would offer much better cylinder fuel distribution than any wet system (carb or TBI).

[Will]

I'll think about it.... :)

[Scott H]

I have been putting off documenting my wiring for way too long. I made a resolution that over the Christmas break I would consolidate the details from a pile of notes I took as I built the harness for the MS. So, here it is. I don't have the EDIS connected yet so the diagram reflects the current distributor setup with just a tach signal going to pin 24. Pin 26 is not used yet.

Grounds
There are three grounds and are interconnected. There are two main grounds, one on the firewall just above the fuel tank on an existing welded-in stud, and the second on the back of the intake cam cover. These are connected by a 10 gage wire. The third is at the fuel pump on the cross member just forward of the trans.

Circuit Protection
There are 8 fuses to keep most everything isolated. It makes it easier to diagnose a potential issue and also to operate individual components for testing. The fuse block is located on the firewall above the intake. These fuses are powered by two relays.

The parts in the Lancia wiring diagram shown as unprotected are now protected with a fuse link. Actually three of them. The brown wire that powers everything comes off of the generator now with a fuse link. The connection from the starter to the gen has its own fuse and then there is a power feed to the three new relays also from the gen.

Relays
A starter relay was added to keep some of the higher current out of the ignition switch. A main engine relay does the same so the blue/black wire only powers the two relays in the engine compartment. It still powers the OE items in the cabin. The fuel pump relay also powers the LC-1 O2 sensor. It is now controlled by the MS ECU so none of the oil pressure/cranking circuitry is used for the pump.

Generator
A Denso unit from a Camry. I don't recall the exact specs but it is in the 130 amp range. The serpentine belt pulley was replaced with a custom V belt pulley and mounted down low where the A/C compressor would typically reside.

This diagram is mostly the standard MS WD. It has the starter, generator, and fuses added to illustrate how it is integrated with the Scorpion's wiring.

The wiring terminals were the ones that start out with the opening shaped like a "U". After crimping the legs of the "U" become an "M" to hold the wire. After about 6 months of driving there have been no wiring issues :cheers:.

http://lancisti.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=23&pictureid=123

[DJ]

I'd like to see the diagram with your Innovate LC-1 included. I'm just starting to look at how mine will be wired.

[Scott H]

I'd like to see the diagram with your Innovate LC-1 included. I'm just starting to look at how mine will be wired.

DJ,

It is there with two items left off. The calibration wire which comes out of the LC-1 controller and the wire that goes to the O2 gauge. The cal wire was incorporated into the wire harness and I have it come out in a different location for ease of connecting. I also used a heavier gauge wire so it would be more durable. The gauge wire just runs up to the gauge. It follows the main harness up through the pass through on the driver's side, behind the seat and forward along the hump.

>Scott