Calling Jon Allen & Megasquirt Lancisti

[Darren]

Hi guys,

After stripping the Vx ngine I have and finding it seized (not sure how badly as yet), but given that the gearbox was full of water, and the engine is dry of oil, we will have ot wait and see! Ho-hum, at least it didn't cost me anything! My change of plan is to stick with my known good engine for now. I am looking at going for injection bodies - as close to 40mm as I can get - probably R1 fuel injection with a fabricated manifold. I've looked at the Emerald system, which is too expensive for my tastes.

The megasquirt looks like the one for me, but I am a little concerned about mapping once it's all in. I'm pretty sure I can build it up, but I just want some comfort I can get it work, and work well. Can those of you out there who've done it either post up, pm or email me please?

Thanks as ever guys!

[Scott H]

Darren,

Timely. I just started mine for the first time Monday night! It cranked about 2-3 seconds and wooomp, it started. I was amazed. The calculators that I used for injector sizing and then the VE tables got me a lot closer than I had figured. I know I am running a bit rich right now and am slowly tuning it back. Unfortunatly my WB O2 was dead out of the box so I can't use it just yet. I hope to get it back by this weekend.

MS-II has autotune and the ability for the WB to tune the map to a specific AFR if you want. I don't know about MS-I.

The install is pretty straight forward and will be as easy or difficult as you want to make it. There are quite a few details that you must pay attention to. The online manual is very comprehensive and for the most part very well written. If you can read through it and are not stumped by the terms and concepts, you'll do fine. The wiring diagram is simple but again, if that is not something you feel you can adapt and integrate into your car's wiring you'll have difficulty. I read through it a couple times and ended up forgetting one detail that took me a couple hours to find. But, it was in the manual and with a little reading I found the solution. So, other that that one item (mis-matched software) it was a very smooth install and start-up.

So far, so good!! I will make a more comprehensive post once I get it driving. I need to get the WB back and working first.

I used a 55mm throttle from a Toyota. What else... Simple, cheap, and very reliable. The older ones are less complicated than the newer ones. I currently am not running any type of idle control. I added a 1/4" vacuum port to use a PWM idle solenoid later on if needed. The MS-II can also run a stepper motor. Those four wires are installed I just have them hidden away for now along with the fast idle and ignition control wires.

I would say to go for it!

>Scott

Hi guys,

After stripping the Vx ngine I have and finding it seized (not sure how badly as yet), but given that the gearbox was full of water, and the engine is dry of oil, we will have ot wait and see! Ho-hum, at least it didn't cost me anything! My change of plan is to stick with my known good engine for now. I am looking at going for injection bodies - as close to 40mm as I can get - probably R1 fuel injection with a fabricated manifold. I've looked at the Emerald system, which is too expensive for my tastes.

The megasquirt looks like the one for me, but I am a little concerned about mapping once it's all in. I'm pretty sure I can build it up, but I just want some comfort I can get it work, and work well. Can those of you out there who've done it either post up, pm or email me please?

Thanks as ever guys!

[Darren]

Hi Scott,

iirc, yours is that beautiful piece of carbon plenum with a single throttle body. That really is a work of art! It's good to know that you got it started and that it has a self-learn function.

Will definitely be going with a WB sensor and am presently wading through the megasquirt site. I look forward to hearing about the results of road testing soon then!

Good luck and I'll keep you posted on my progress as and when I get to it! Lots of reading and research first!

Cheers

[Will]

Darren, the easiest (albeit not cheapest) way to do individual throttle bodies is to use a twin DCOE manifold with Jenvey or TWM bodies. If you go this route, you'll want to go all out and have sequential injection- still pending on the MS.

Otherwise, a single TB is a good alternative with the MS. Sizes that will fit on a Lancia plenum are 56-60mm (the latter requires skimming the 58.5mm "hole" in the plenum).

[John Allen]

Darren, the easiest (albeit not cheapest) way to do individual throttle bodies is to use a twin DCOE manifold with Jenvey or TWM bodies. If you go this route, you'll want to go all out and have sequential injection- still pending on the MS.

Otherwise, a single TB is a good alternative with the MS. Sizes that will fit on a Lancia plenum are 56-60mm (the latter requires skimming the 58.5mm "hole" in the plenum).

Yes, the 'easiest' (read bolt on) would be the Jenvey/TWM route on a DCNF manifold. It WILL be a lot of $s (about $1400US for the setup) but it looks and sounds like carbs.

Will, I'm not sure why you think sequential injection is needed for ITBs? I have a set of Honda CBR600 throttle bodies that I was going to use on my SOHC FIAT powered sports racer. The manifold is pretty easy to fab up and the TBs have all of the stuff (injectors, rails, FPR, TPS, etc) already mounted. The Honda look like miniature DCOEs and with FI, you can mount them at any angle. I was going to use 'staged' injection on my racer - one smaller set of injectors near the port (for idle and low rpm running) and a larger set in the airhorns that progressively take over from the smaller ones at high power requirements. All of this is part of the MS solution.

Scott, the 'lesser' versions of MS (read non MS-II chip) now have the ability to control stepper motor idle actuators. I don't run any now, and my idle is no worse than I had with carbs. I good friend of mine uses the ignition advance/retard mapping to control his idle and it is rock steady.

Back to the original question.... If I were to go ITBs again, it would be to adapt a set off of a motorcycle - they are CHEAP and nearly complete. The manifold is pretty easy to may, I would take a stock manifold and cut the runners of and weld aluminum tubing as a start.

HOWEVER, I was never happy with the off idle response when I had the DCNF setup. I think it had a LOT to do with the older codes (the newer versions allow a lot more tuning options), but be aware that the vacuum signal required for speed/density fuel calculations is very weal and abruptly changes at small throttle openings. It was VERY difficult to get a map that worked well on the street - I kept 'faking out' the ECU to get the transitions right. If you are building a track car - that is different. Another option would be to use the 'alpha-N' fuel calculations that rely on rpm and throttle opening (instead of vacuum).

I will tell you right now that when I changed back to a single TB (modified Beta manifold) my low end torque went WAY up, tuning was a BREEZE and it dives much better overall. I did lose the cool 'Weber' sound and may have lost a little in the upper rpms (debateable) but I am much happier now.

[Darren]

Darren, the easiest (albeit not cheapest) way to do individual throttle bodies is to use a twin DCOE manifold with Jenvey or TWM bodies. If you go this route, you'll want to go all out and have sequential injection- still pending on the MS.

Otherwise, a single TB is a good alternative with the MS. Sizes that will fit on a Lancia plenum are 56-60mm (the latter requires skimming the 58.5mm "hole" in the plenum).

Hi Will, yes, you are correct - to a point. The easiest and not cheapest would be to go with the Emerald setup with jenvey bodies and GC manifold and you are right it is not the cheapest, ie

Emerald K3 ECU - 680.00
Throttle bodies, sensors and wiring etc 1620.00
GC Manifold 350.00
MH airbox 223.25
EDIS & Trigger wheels etc approx 100.00

Total 2973.25

So call it an even 3k to include postage, and that does not include the cost of WB Lambder at another 125 to 250 quid! I have not inclided the cost of swirlpot, pumps, pipes, etc because they are used in both cases, like the revised gear selector and alternator bracket.

I think that by using alternatives - such as bike injector throttle bodies, which you can source on ebay for around 100, which include the injectors and fuel rail, etc - although I do appreciate that new injectors may be required. The cost of fabricating a new manifold I estimate to be up to a max of 250 quid. That then leaves the cost of the Megasquirt system and associated bits which are going to be nowhere near the cost of the Emerald.

The only thing that I have been told that the Emerald system has that the Megasquirt does not is acceptability if you like - there are available maps for the emerald that you can load up and you're more or less there, plus a lot of tuners will work with Emerald. Megasquirt is stil a system in it's infancy over here and finding a reliable tuner who can may your car is more difficult, hence my post.

I can speak for the type of injection as I am only just reading about that at the moment, but welcome comments and advice from all areas! ;o))

Cheers

[Darren]

Will, I'm not sure why you think sequential injection is needed for ITBs? I have a set of Honda CBR600 throttle bodies that I was going to use on my SOHC FIAT powered sports racer. The manifold is pretty easy to fab up and the TBs have all of the stuff (injectors, rails, FPR, TPS, etc) already mounted. The Honda look like miniature DCOEs and with FI, you can mount them at any angle. I was going to use 'staged' injection on my racer - one smaller set of injectors near the port (for idle and low rpm running) and a larger set in the airhorns that progressively take over from the smaller ones at high power requirements. All of this is part of the MS solution.

Scott, the 'lesser' versions of MS (read non MS-II chip) now have the ability to control stepper motor idle actuators. I don't run any now, and my idle is no worse than I had with carbs. I good friend of mine uses the ignition advance/retard mapping to control his idle and it is rock steady.

Back to the original question.... If I were to go ITBs again, it would be to adapt a set off of a motorcycle - they are CHEAP and nearly complete. The manifold is pretty easy to may, I would take a stock manifold and cut the runners of and weld aluminum tubing as a start.

HOWEVER, I was never happy with the off idle response when I had the DCNF setup. I think it had a LOT to do with the older codes (the newer versions allow a lot more tuning options), but be aware that the vacuum signal required for speed/density fuel calculations is very weal and abruptly changes at small throttle openings. It was VERY difficult to get a map that worked well on the street - I kept 'faking out' the ECU to get the transitions right. If you are building a track car - that is different. Another option would be to use the 'alpha-N' fuel calculations that rely on rpm and throttle opening (instead of vacuum).

I will tell you right now that when I changed back to a single TB (modified Beta manifold) my low end torque went WAY up, tuning was a BREEZE and it dives much better overall. I did lose the cool 'Weber' sound and may have lost a little in the upper rpms (debateable) but I am much happier now.

Hi John,

Thank you so much for coming back on this point and thanks for the pointers. As previously mentioned, I am looking at going the motorcycle injection throttle bodies - probably Yamaha R1 later type if the diameter is ok - was thinking around 40 mm. There is someone over here who has used the earlier R1 carb bodies and megajolt system - writeup on the installation in this months montecarlo consortium magazine and did you know that those of you outside of the UK can subscribe at the same price as us Brits for electronic membership - email me for more info! - I know they work, so my thinking is that fuel injected version should work too with the necessary 'encouragement'.

My car is predominently a street car. It will be used on the track - but mainly roads, so a good tickover and potential ability to flick a switch for different maps if not catered for by the use of throttle or 'weight of foot on pedal'. My assumption is that is the original setup is ok on a bile without going to a dual system, then it should be ok on the car - is this correct?

The issue for me in using the Beta injection is actually sourcing the bits - I can get the bike setup easily. I have been looking for an IE cam for ages, let alone the injection system.

Cheers

[Scott H]

I had picked up a set of the R1 throttles a while back. It is an amazing setup especially if you consider the price. I decided against going that way for a three main reasons.

First was that they are really narrow. I made a spacer to go in between the two pairs and still a linkage in the center. Even then they were still pretty short. The injectors I never seriously researched but was not sure how many different sizes are available and at what price. Using the standard Bosch size makes them plentiful and cheap. Lastly, as John stated, is the issue of vacuum signal stability.

I don't think that the trade offs are worth it to deal with the hassles of ITBs with speed density. If MS had a MAF system it might be more of a consideration.

All of these are things I think I could have worked around but with everything else decided it wasn't worth it. Ultimately it is my goal to take the MS system to a 2.0 liter with a turbo. The ITB gains are different in that application and just not worth it to me.

>Scott

[Scott H]

Oh, I forgot to add a plug for Innovate. My LC-1 was dead out of the box. Unfortunately I had wired the module's wiring harness into the Scorpion's harness. So, Sunday I send an email off to the co. I bought the sensor from (DIYautotune.com - another great co.) telling them of my woes. They reply Monday AM saying that they have sent my email off to Innovate. Mon PM I get a reply from Innovate asking me to check two more things.

I call back Tues AM with the results => DOA. I need to ship it back, damn. I cut the wire harness <sigh> and get it out Tues PM. I call Wed AM. They have the sensor and move it to the front of the line and ask when I need it back. I say ASAP and by the weekend if at all possible.

So, I get home a bit ago and I have an email telling me they Fedex'd the sensor back to me with arrival Friday.

Yes, it sucks that I got a bad sensor but they did all that they could to get it back to me with express shipping. Anybody will take your money, it is good to find a co. who will reply promptly to emails and go the extra mile to try and make things right. The guy at Innovate was always easy to talk with and was there to answer the phone.

I will add in a 6-pin harness-to-harness weatherproof connector to re-install the sensor this time. That will make sure it does not need to come back out :)

>Scott

[Will]

Scott, you've got me confused, did you mean to write that the sensor CONTROLLER was bad? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I assume you mean controller since the sensor on an LC-1 already has a six pin weatherproof connector and simply unplugs from the controller body so you can swap sensors or move the controller around on a setup that uses multiple 02 sensors. Or at least, this USED to be the way they were made, mine's about six or seven years old now I dunno if they changed something.

John, I wrote that sequential would be optimal for individual throttle bodies because individual throttle bodies + sequential - holy grail. The individual throttle bodies are (usually) expensive to set up but free the cylinders from pressure interrelationship issues, while the sequential puts the PWM event leading the intake on each injector rather than half of the injectors (the same ones) repeatedly spraying on a closed valve in B2B. Given that the ITB roiute is expensive and sequential is often only a couple hundred bucks more than B2B, and all the ITB systems I've seen on racing machines are also sequential, my inclination would be to go sequential.

[Scott H]

Scott, you've got me confused, did you mean to write that the sensor CONTROLLER was bad? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I assume you mean controller since the sensor on an LC-1 already has a six pin weatherproof connector and simply unplugs from the controller body so you can swap sensors or move the controller around on a setup that uses multiple 02 sensors. Or at least, this USED to be the way they were made, mine's about six or seven years old now I dunno if they changed something.


Will,

If I confused you then I am doing my job <grin>. Yes, it was the controller. I have refered to the two parts collectivly as "the sensor" which I guess is not 100% technically accurate. The Prez caught that one - HA!
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/images/LC_1.jpg
The plug on the right side of this photo is where the sensor plugs into the controller. The other end of this controller is an unterminated wire harness with six wires (two grounds, one switched power, two signal outputs, and a diagnostic wire). I had already connected these six wires to the car's harness when the problem was found. So, I cut that harness to get the old controller off and returned. The I will add another weatherproof connector to that end of the controller and to the pigtail of the old sensor controller that is still wired into the car.

Here is the connector I am using.

>Scott

[Will]

Thanks for the clarification- it makes sense you'd return both parts if you dodn't have a spare sensor for diagnostics. The sensor, FWIW, is VW but it's the same as the Bosch LSU and you can get one for $60. Big difference from the 2000 price!

[Scott H]

Thanks for the clarification- it makes sense you'd return both parts if you dodn't have a spare sensor for diagnostics. The sensor, FWIW, is VW but it's the same as the Bosch LSU and you can get one for $60. Big difference from the 2000 price!


I know the controller failed because it never went through the first step of the heater calibration. This is done without the sensor connected. It also failed to communicate with the laptop and the diagnostic LED was inop. I went ahead and sent in the sensor too just because.

Do you have the part no. or year/model for the VW that Innovate gets this sensor from?

It is amazing that WB O2s have dropped in price the way that they have. I wasn't too terribly long ago that these would run $5,000 and were non-existant outside of the OEM's calibration labs. The latest OBDII requirements have made these pretty much standard equipment on just about everything.

>Scott

[John Allen]

The wide-bands that cost so much a few years ago were a different design. I seem to recall that Honda bought the company that was the sole source of them to use in their cars and the price REALLY jumped.

The older design had a much more elaborate heater/calibration circuit. I have a kit somewhere, but the sensor alone costs double what the Innovate LC-1 does. I would rather go with a proven design that is cheaper than try to build and calibrate a kit.....

[Will]

Scott, here's a link with all the part #'s, via google: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/345

Get ready for it to act funny on the calibration too, it tries to reboot and calibrate several times, this is apparently normal.

and for the really...err...THRIFTY: http://www.14point7.com/JAW/JAW.htm

[Scott H]

Scott, here's a link with all the part #'s, via google: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/345

Get ready for it to act funny on the calibration too, it tries to reboot and calibrate several times, this is apparently normal.

and for the really...err...THRIFTY: http://www.14point7.com/JAW/JAW.htm

Thanks Will! I had wondered (not enough to Google it though I guess) who made the sensor Innovate was using. About the only way to get that type of pricing is for it to be in mass production.

John, I think it was NTK that Honda was dealing with. The old DIY-EFI group that made the DIY WBO2 board was using the NTK. I had picked up a board and the parts list for the WB but never built it. IIRC Bowling and Grippo came out of that same group.

>Scott

[Will]

Thanks Will! I had wondered (not enough to Google it though I guess) who made the sensor Innovate was using. About the only way to get that type of pricing is for it to be in mass production.

John, I think it was NTK that Honda was dealing with. The old DIY-EFI group that made the DIY WBO2 board was using the NTK. I had picked up a board and the parts list for the WB but never built it. IIRC Bowling and Grippo came out of that same group.

>Scott

Yea, it's the NTK 066 you are speaking of. It has a thinner body and reputedly slightly more accurate, but also more expensive, slower response time and more pressure sensitivity (read: bad)

The NTK is more uniform sensor-to-sensor, but that's irrelevant in applications like the LM-1 that calibrate to the specific sensor. For an OEM app without calibration, you'd want the NTK.

There are also the original zirconium WB02 sensors, I don't know much about them except they were initially hella expensive, so will reserve comment.

[Scott H]

There are also the original zirconium WB02 sensors, I don't know much about them except they were initially hella expensive, so will reserve comment.

That is what we use. Last I checked, $350.

>Scott