Has anyone successfully installed programmable injection?

[Snakeman]

Hi All,

I am strongly considering installing a programable injection system to my S2. The systems I am looking at are: DTA Motec or Weber-Alfa.

Has anyone done this? or could anyone recommend another reputable system, or company, that has experience with the Lancia/fiat twin cam 2.0L

Cheers, S

[John Allen]

I've installed a MegaSquirt DFI on my Scorpion. It is a do-it-yourself kit available he in the US ($120).

Works great and has the ability to use pressurized system (mine will be turbo'd soon).

-John Allen

[Will]

There's at least one E-prod racer that was running an Electromotive Tec2 at one point, Jeff Davison in Atlanta is running the Speed-Pro system. I've looked into the AEM stand-alone and Tec3. Did a little reading on the Link. There's a shop in CA that offers the Haltech E6A, I think- but I can't remember who it was.
Jim- HOW WELL is the Mega working for you, and are you using DIS (I want this, but worried about the upper limit accuracy?
I'd love to hear more about your setup in detail?
-Will

[andyvilly]

8) Hi there,have you ever considered going down to the scrappy and "salvaging" all the stuff of a fiat/lancia?ECU,wiring loom,sensors everything!!Its usually all magnetti-marelli stuff and once its up and running take it to a rolling road with the facilities to "livemap" your car and they,ll make you a custom chip to suit you car.then if you change cams,head porting etc take it back and they,ll "livemap" it all again.Its possably the easiest way and if stuff goes wrong theres enough info and help on the net to put it right!!!and you dont have to go out and buy overpriced sensors from specialists,go to the scrappy and get another one!!!Hope this helps. Andy. :D

[Will]

Andy:
We're in the USA. They stopped bringing them in in '82.
So, we'd first have to go to a "scrappy" in the UK.
Then, once we had the parts, nobody here could dyno the car, nobody on this side of the pond works on the Weber/Marelli units. I've got Weber right by my house (main office for USA) and even THEY can't service the stuff. If you don't have a Weber carb in the US, then don't use Weber.
Our choices are one of the Australian units, or AEM (mostly plug-in units) or Electromotive, F.A.S.T., or the DIY that Jim' stalking about, but so far he's one of just a few people who seem to have got them to work. And the only one I know of on a Lancia.

-Will

[andyvilly]

:D Hi snakeman, read the reply,so in thery at least stuff like webber-alfa and luminition management is out the window???? Seems you lot like your jap stuff,have you tryied blitz or apex-i stuff????I think MSD do a range of engine management also?What about AEM? (www.apexi-usa.com) (www.aempower.com) or Greddy or ems management (www.ultraperformance.com) (www.lightningmotorsports.com for MSD) I went to NY last week for a BREAK,yeh right!! and bought a few mags back with me,seems a cant get away from cars wherever i go!!!! Anyway good luck!!! Andy. 8)

[Snakeman]

Thanks for the website info Andy,

I will have a trawl through them.

Cheers, S

[lancialonnie]

All,

I'm wondering if anyone has installed throttle bodies for FI on their Scorp/Monte? I have seen that Redline/Weber has both DCOE and DCNF throttle bodies and am considering going this route instead of salvaging from an old Lancia. Redline also has the ECU available in several variations. From what I have been told, the sidedraft DCOE throttle bodies would be more efficient than DCNFs, but are more work to install. Any input on this subject is appreciated.

Thanks! Lonnie

[Wallace]

Probably the best solution. Except paying for them !

[Will]

I think you'll find it can be done cheaper by fitting injectors to DCOE carb bodies. The only problem is, you need to find two rebuildables the same size, and when you find them, you are usually looking at worn throttle shafts, so then you have to deal with that. Finally, most FI controllers will want to have a TPS, which will require replacing the shafts anyway.
A check on ebay and the auction sites will occasionally turn up a set of Jenvies on a manifold for a Honda or something, but even these are usually around 1K.
The only inexpensive solution I know of is to use a Lancia Beta fuel injection plenum with a larger throttle body. This gives you port injection and a throttle body pattern that can be adapted to fit other TB's.
The Weber big throat TB is a bolt-on, and I think the big aftermarket ones for a Tiburon will fit also- you might have to use an intermediate plate, but I don't think so.
Lastly, there are some people using motorcycle injection bodies on engines up to 2L, you might want to look into this.

[John Allen]

forgot to mention that in the photo gallery, I have a section with pictures of my conversion....

-John Allen

[Wallace]

did vaguley consider at one time adapting a set of motorbike carbs as Will sugested .. . they "should" give better response than a single large butterfly. didn't think it was really wortb the effort - and it might not be too easy to get the idle set up to work properly - on a single butterfly, there's jusat a single solenoid valve - difficult to fit onto every intake runer !

[Dave Dutton]

I have a kit that makes installation of an Haltech or an Electromotive Tec3 pretty easy. check out www.applemotors.com/fi.htm . One nice feature for either of these stand-alones is NO restrictive airflow regulator.

Although my site shows an X1/9 FIAT, the 2 liter cars will benefit just as easily. I can sell complete used Lancia or FIAT spider Bosch fuel injection for anyone with a carbed car who wants fuel injection.

Both computers are good with Electromotive winning the contest if you require any kind of service or technical help. The Haltech can be either fuel only or full engine management, for which I can supply a crank sensor with a custom mount and a trigger wheel. The Electromotive is available only with full management because the high resolution and high power ignition is central to their system.

I have done this adaptation so that one can bolt in a programmable computer without having to wire or fabricate anything.

thanks
Dave

[Will]

Looks like John's doing the EDIS setup also, I haven't been keeping up with your project, John!
I've got my own problems, looks like the whole lower supercharger bracket/oil takeoff is going to foul the crossmember in a huge way- I don't know why I didn't see that sooner! Well, this means a bunch of custom fabrication now, as all that stuff will have to be re-made. Aargh. Also, no point in using the ABARTH volumetrico motor now, might as well put that together and keep for resale or next project, and use the other ABARTH blower on a modified manifold setup and custom brackets.
It looked so easy at first- DARN!
I'll need custom crank pulley assembly turned up as well at this point, off I go to try to figure some things out....
-Will

[JGreenslade]

So, have there been any developments on this front in the interim 3 years?

I'm hearing some very mixed reports about Megasquirt (from users and tuners). They're not saying it's bad per-se, but very time-consuming to assemble + install, and rolling road tuners rarely know how to map it.

Weber Alpha seems like a good option, but apparently, only Weber-authorised tuners can map it, so you're stuck with a particular selection of rolling road tuners.

BTW - Will, what happened to your Volumetrico engine? Did it come from a 4-door 131 Abarth Volumetrico? Why didn't you put in into the Lancia?


Justin

[Pope1]

Justin, I think a lot depends on your budget, time available and ability to do stuff for yourself. I was thinking about FI for my Volumex only last month and decided to investigate some UK-based solutions even though I've been impressed by what I've read of Electromotive's kit in the past. For me, support is a major factor so after a bit of research I called Dave Walker at Emerald (http://www.emeraldm3d.com/index.html) as he has a reputation for being a straight talker. Got some useful information from him but haven't gone any further with it as yet.

[Snakeman]

Hi Guys,

I am not sure if I mentioned it before on this site but I did fit F.I. to my montecarlo and wrote an Edited Highlights article for the Montecarlo Consortion mag - It almost took up the whole mag.

I also sent a copy over to Guy Crofts website and he has made it avalible as a download.

See attached link

http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=292&highlight=montecarlo

Cheers, Geoff W.

[Pope1]

Geoff, many thanks for that write-up which is wonderfully easy for non-techs to read. It confirms my theory that, with a project like this, one either invests time or spends cash and carbs and distributors should all be thrown away. Which ECU did you use for your car?

[Will]

Oooh, here's a thread resurrected from the dead!

I have been fooling around learning some new stuff and making some new stuff since this thread was active -I now have wideband 02 and MSII, there are actually some good utilities to help program MSII that may not have existed before.

The lower SC bracket mentioned above was solved by my making some custom molds and having a new assembly with a somewhat different than stock configuration cast in aluminum.

I'm currently working on pulleys and some other projects, but had to take a "time out" to learn to be a machinist in the interim. Since my normal media are wood and stone, metal has thrown me a few curves. On the bright side, I did get an old lathe resurrected and started making some parts to try to get my hand in, and have some leads on a mill to hopefully manifest itself soon.

Next month I'll be in Seattle trying to coerce Mom into letting me use her kiln house as a foundry to try some aluminum casting for manifolds.


I am SO not in a rush because my car is strictly a spare time/therapy project that keeps me out of trouble, I have no great ambition to "finish" it, which as I see it differentiates my project from most others. For me, it's more about the DIY aspect and learning new things and how to make new parts. When it's done, it will be cool and all, but not nearly as fast or agile as a car I could just buy off the showroom floor somewhere.

FWIW, one of my volumetricos is a crate motor ( ABARTH apparently built more motors than cars) and the other one is of unknown origin and supposed to be "new" but the blue silicone pretty much indicates to me at least that it was in something at one point, since the ABARTH blowers are sealed with paper gaskets.

I have a feeling that once things warm up, most of this year will be dedivcated to new siding/windows/etc. on the house and not a whole lot of hobby time or discretionary income for same, although I do plan to CNC a bench mill so I can have some exposure doing that, I've already been experimenting with software that converts solid models to G-codes and a CNC simulator that shows the cutting paths getting carved, what I need to do once I find a mill is source some ballscrews, steppers or servos, and some xylotex controllers or geckodrives. But the next thing on the list is a DRO for the lathe, and that probably means building a Shumatech job- for which I've been lurking on the Shumatech Yahoo group.

One step at a time :)

-Will
PS> please excuse typos, long long day!

PPS> Geoff, WB02 is not just for "rich boys" anymore, the innovate job is $200USD and because it lets you map the WBO2 to a programmable "slope" you can use it WITH ANY ECU!!!! Contact me via PM if you need more info, I can provide and /or ship you a unit if it's not availablle your side of the pond.

[HF Stinger]

www.034motorsport.com

I have followed the progress of this system over the last several years, almost decade, and its the system I chose for my Audi.

If you want to do a bit of research on the system and voew the support network go to the forums at www.motorgeek.com

Javad is the owner/developer and he is EXCELLENT as far as helping you choose the system for your application and making sure you get it tuned.

[Snakeman]

Hi Chris,

I used an OMEX controller. They provide good simple to use software and their aftersales help is just superb.

If you are UK based then I would recommend them

G

[JGreenslade]

Very interesting information everyone, thanks!

Particular thanks go to Geoff for taking the time and effort to document the conversion. Whilst the article has been kept accessible, it's still quite comprehensive compared to others that I've read.

BTW - Keep us posted as to your track exploits this season, Geoff!

For those who haven't seen them, there are some excellent shots of Geoff's car here: http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=165

Is that the Omicron headlight conversion btw?


Justin

[Snakeman]

I purchashed the headlamps from another monte owner, I am reasonably sure they are the Omicron kit

This year I am going back to Mallory to shake down the new mods: - VX trans, Cooling system upgrades, Bigger race wheels and tyres. The car has also lost some weight over the winter (which is more than can be said for the owner!)

I am also hoping to get some competitive sprint events done at Goodwood, Pembury, Prescott and possibly Curborough. It all depends on if I have the money to compete

Regs, Geoff

[John Allen]

Next month I'll be in Seattle trying to coerce Mom into letting me use her kiln house as a foundry to try some aluminum casting for manifolds.


Will, if you are in Seattle give me an email..... I think I could afford some time to meet you in person!

-John

[Pope1]

Hi Chris,

I used an OMEX controller. They provide good simple to use software and their aftersales help is just superb.

If you are UK based then I would recommend them

G


Many thanks Geoff. I am in the UK so I'll investigate further.

[Snakeman]

PPS> Geoff, WB02 is not just for "rich boys" anymore, the innovate job is $200USD and because it lets you map the WBO2 to a programmable "slope" you can use it WITH ANY ECU!!!! Contact me via PM if you need more info, I can provide and /or ship you a unit if it's not availablle your side of the pond.




Hi Will,

In fact since I wrote that article I did purchase an Innovate WBO2 reader with a real-time display for the dashboard. I use it mainly for mixture monitoring. I have not had time to 'tune on the hoof' yet, however I am hoping to also use the 5 volt data logger for monitoring frontal lift, but thats on the big list of stuff to do though

Cheers, Geoff W

[Will]

I really like the programmable slope feature because it virtually eliminates the FI hunting in closed loop- which in turn makes it a whole lot easier to dial the darned thing in.

[Snakeman]

I really like the programmable slope feature because it virtually eliminates the FI hunting in closed loop- which in turn makes it a whole lot easier to dial the darned thing in.


I have not seen that on my LM1 unit

Did you know there is a forum at Innovate

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Geoff

[Will]

The instructions that come with the (LC-1) unit are not that great, Geoff- but if you read them (for your LM-1, which has the same functionality), you'll find that the real power of the unit is not as an "indicator" ie. to show you whether it's running rich or lean, but rather as a device that hooks directly to your FI system (any FI system that uses an 02 sensor except for the very rare resistance-sensors) and provides a gradual ramp (that you can program the low. high. and voltage slope for) between rich and lean, using either stoich or lambda scales.

This is done with the "analog output" on the unit. Plug that directly into your FI system (you may have to correct voltages slightly for ground voltage offset) and then you can use any of the "learning" type programs available for your ECU to let the ECU teach itself itself most of the tuning.

LC-1 users figure this out right away, as the first thing you have to do to use the device is hook it up to a computer.

LM-1 users have a built-in display, so they sometimes "overlook" this feature, and then end up trying to hand edit injector bins, which can frustrate just about anybody. Ditto for the gauge users.

Question for you: Do you have a later software disc than 11-0001A ? If so, can you PM me? I can provide photocopy/scan of the LC1 analog output programming section if you need it, but it should be self explanatory once you install your software and hook your laptop to the serial port on your unit.

FI volumex monte: Yes, Nathan Dalhammer using SAAB turbo FI about six years ago, but that's the only one I know of. Ran well, but poorly executed (just sloppy cobbling together of parts). BUT it worked pretty well, so take that FWIW. Mine's pretty, but still going together five years later.Hmmm....

[Snakeman]

I think I need to re-visit this WBO2 stuff. I will dig out the box of stuf CD etc and let you know what I have.

I recall my ECU having many O2 sensor options on the paramenters list so I will reveiw the ECU instructions too

Geoff

[Will]

The purpose of the programmable analog outpuit is to simulate a NARROW band sensor (but a lot more accurately!) so you shouldn't have to make any changes to the ECU if the ECU was already set up for a standard (narrow band) sensor. If your normal sensor for your FI system has one, three, (or occasionally 4) wires, and the business end of it looks like a birdcage,it's narrow band. If it has five (or occasionally six or seven) wires,and the business end of it looks like a film can with small holes in the end, it's wideband.

Narrow band sensors have a big voltage drop "transition" right around stoich, and a typical ECU will flutter around both sides of this trying to compensate in closed loop. One big disadvantage to this is that it's nearly impossible to program the damned thing to run a little richer than stoich (for maximum power) in closed loop because the ECU constantly leans the mixture back to stoich.

With a Wideband making a "simulated narrow band" output, the ECU gets a smooth, linear transition above and below the target voltage so it can easily zero in on stoich. Then, because the voltage slope, as well as high and low voltages are adjustable, you can program the LM-1 (or LC-1) so that the unit makes the target voltage a little richer than stoich, smack in your maximum power band.

Now the ECU will seek and find that point immediately in closed loop, be dead-on-balls accurate and adjust your fueling for maximum power. It's like magic! :)

Hope this helps, I've been guilty myself of getting new toys and failing to RTFM!!! :)

PS> Assume you already know some of the above, recapped for other readers that might not (yet).

[Snakeman]

Yes, Gulity!

So does the accurate O2 information that is inputting into the ECU store itself as updated information on the fuel map or is it held as an adapted value that is stored in a different place in the ECU (not to the map) - I guess it depends on the ECU?

G

[Will]

It's not stored anywhere, we're talking about the ANALOG output, it's a reference voltage- just like your original narrow band sensor. But because it's now scaled however you want,you can "bump" the scaling by 10-15% so the ECU is now running at peak power AFR in closed loop, rather than jumping back and forth between closed loop and any bins you have increased the PWM for that override closed loop for the ECU.

Depending on whether you have "learning" type ECU software, which I first saw on Haltech and now seems to be available for nearly everything, you can then set up the software to compare the 02 voltage to MAP and RPM data to "tune" all of your bins for you, or at least "suggest" enrichment/enleanment of bins (which is what the MSII software did last I checked, but it changes almost monthly it seems)

[MagnumPI]

Hey Will, its Austin, i ordered an intake from you. What kind of TPS did you use? The only kinds I'm familiar with appear to operate differently, does the TB require a mod?

[Will]

Hi Austin;
Most programmable FI systems require a throttle position SENSOR, rather than a throttle position switch. It fits on the same size "D" shaft, but the clocking is different, which means that you have two choices- you can either make a mount that orients the switch at a different angle, or you can solder or braze up the shaft and file a flat on it. You should be able to file this by hand, and if you were really desperate you could probably even do it with JB weld since it's not subject to a whole lot of stress. The new TPS will be a potentiometer type and not the SPDT switch type the original L-jet is.

-Will

[John Allen]

like this...
http://lancisti.net/mkportal/modules/gallery2/index.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=22437

Hope this helps
-John

[MagnumPI]

Oh, I think I see. Thanks guys. I think I got it, the TPS doesn't actually move, like on the stock one, only electronic? The only kind I've worked with was on the Supra, and the sensor was on the throttle quadrant and physically the whole thing went with it. Or am I still not there, and you guys are mounting it on the other side?

I think what I'm lost on is which side of the throttle body it goes on.

[John Allen]

here is a shot of the Beta style manifold for use on my Scorpion (though with a Nissan throttle body - VERY similar to the Weber in design). You can see it is mounted on the throttle body opposite of the cable/linkage side. There are 2 bolts that mount the TPS adapter to the throttle body (adapter not shown, but TPS is there).

http://lancisti.net/mkportal/modules/gallery2/index.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=22562

Note that on an FI Beta, the TPS is located on the linkage bracket - but is mounted and operates the same as I have shown. When using a FIAT 124/131 style manifold, it is almost idential to what I've shown. The adapter plate that was pictured in the earlier post will directly fit ANY L-Jet TPS switch location (be it a FIAT, Lancia, BMW, Volvo, SAAB, some early Nissans, etc....)

Hope this helps clear things up.

[MagnumPI]

Yes, thank you again. That's what I had planned, and thought made most sense, it's my Toyota thats throwing me off.... but its good to have someplace to go, not like the Mercedes, nobody performs any mods, and it's all experimental still.

[Snakeman]

Question for you: Do you have a later software disc than 11-0001A ? If so, can you PM me? I can provide photocopy/scan of the LC1 analog output programming section if you need it, but it should be self explanatory once you install your software and hook your laptop to the serial port on your unit.


Will, Check your email

Geoff

[Bullet-Train]

Hey, I've done it - fit injection that is! I'm not to up on how to post pics and the like so if you sendme your email address I'll send directly, I'm sean@bullet-train.com.

I used what i ahd in the garage at the time on my SII which was 4 hilborn throttle bodies with the mechanical injector port plugged. I made a manifold and fitted Cosworth grey injectors directly into the manifold. It used a Misti EVO4 injector rail and vacume reg, EVO crank angle sensor, aftermarket TPS - also runs MAP sensor for current turbo project, hall dizzi driven off exhaust cam and an Autronic SM2 - same as we use down here for the GpA rally cars and used to for V8 Supercars.

It works well. idles with big cams very clean burn, closed loop lambda if you want it but I tend not to run it, and more maps than you can shake a stick at.

lets know what you want to do and I'll see if I can help. Just remember you get what you pay for in computers and they are only as good as the guy tuning them.