Scorp. Air Filter

[davidb]

I'm starting a new thread being tired of the "DCNF Clearance" rambling.
W/the stock air filter housing one can use the FRAM paper filter: CA 9345.
I thought that might assist some people but then that got poo-pooed on.
AutoZone for approx. $18. Then the free-flow/reuseable topic arose, TMH
in particular. $100 US [converted] + their adaptor + overseas shipping.
Gentlemen AutoZone has K & N filters that fit for approx. $52, pre-oiled
no less. Part # is E-0773. What am I ? Some kind of rocket scientist?

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

That's a great find.

http://www.autozone.com/Ntt,E-0773/shopping/allResults.htm;jsessionid=1FC2F0D9B962A93D087156D4 30B2B184

Could you give me a "workable" ZIP code so i can do some more searching on that site? European ZIP codes don't work. Great price btw, with dollar so low to the euro.

[davidb]

Good Lord Otto you are burning me out & I may fade away
w/o any further advise. GOOGLE zip codes on the east coast
to save shipping fees: New York or New Jersey. Failing that
just go to K & N's website. I gave you the part #! Hello? Get
it from them. It's NOT as though AutoZone it the sole dis-
tributor of K & N filters in the U.S.A. for ChristSakes. Help?

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

Actually the first question i directed straight to you and then this sort of reply. Dzjee, always nice to meet "fellow" Lancisti. Glad you are in the States and i am not.

[DJ]

Gosh, David

You're well on your way to becoming our resident Grump. Please play nice. :) BTW, I tried to call you back but got your VM.

FWIW, I was a nuclear "Rocket Scientist" when I worked for NASA in Ohio a few years back. Does that count?

A bit more online searching will result in this (http://discountpowerparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=64&products_id=2849) or this (http://www.gforceautosports.com/knE-0773.htm) for even a bit less than the Autozone price. However, I can tell you that this filter will NOT work in the stock Montecarlo/Scorpion airboxes without some modifications because it's not long enough and the opening ID is not large enough. The opening ID required is about 4 1/8 inches and this K&N ID is only 3.625 inches. The length of the original filter is about 8 3/4 inches and the K&N referenced here is only 7.25 inches long. You'd have to make up about 1.5 inches on one end or the other. The TMH JR filter is 7 3/4 inches long and uses a base adapter to raise it up and make up the difference. The adapter also has an indented area on one side to keep from blocking the intake at the bottom of the airbox.

The same issues apply to the Fram CA 9345 (also Hastings AF1135 or OFA1135, Purolator A35433, STP SA9345, etc.). These filters are only 8 inches long and the opening ID is only 3 3/16 inches. The correct Fram filter for the Montecarlo/Scorpion is CA 3120, but these are NLA as far as I've been able to determine.

Otto, if you still need a US Zip code you can use mine (80031).

[davidb]

Okay you're the rocket scientist D.J. & I'm the grump. The FRAM
CA 9345 IS tall enough. So tall one need push on the filter housing
top to close the snaps. Circumference is perfect. I returned it when
I got the K & N so no dimensions. The K & N is 7.25 inches tall,
correct. The width is 6". The top has a rubber flange [spigot end in
plbg. lingo] that slides over the housing lid flange. Filter comes w/a
4.25" hose clamp to secure filter to lid. Filter bottom is sealed. The
housing intake port is on the housing side[bottom]@ 2 o'clock. Even
a filter of "proper" height would not admit air thru the filter bottom.
Maybe the K & N being "short" allows for better flow w/i the housing.
This is getting confusing, maybe FRAM and K & N changed their filters
dimensions but not their part #s? If you want to get picky add K & N's
filter cleaning/re-coat kit for another $12. So now you're up to approx.
$70 for the whole she-bang.

[davidb]

Re-dux: I admit I'm flying blind here as my Scorp. came sans
air filter so I have no "template". I did establish early on the
the EXACT FRAM filter is NLA as D.J. correctly stated. As such
it's been trial fitments in the air filter isle w/housing & lid in
hand. Have no explanation for these dimensional disparities.
Those I posted are real. As for the K & N being "short" it IS
secured to the lid, bottom IS closed. As such a bottom support
[a la TMH] may be superfluous. Dunno. Damn these cars, nothing
is simple or straightforward. Guess I'll go w/the K & N I have.

[DJ]

Okay you're the rocket scientist D.J. & I'm the grump.

Well, technically, I didn't actually work on any rockets. But I did decommission the reactor that was used in testing materials for radiation effects in preparation for the Apollo missions.

Sometimes it's difficult to discern one's "tone of voice" or intent in written online communications so I was just trying to gently point out that your actual demeanor and intent could have been misunderstood.


The FRAM CA 9345 IS tall enough. So tall one need push on the filter housing top to close the snaps. Circumference is perfect. I returned it when I got the K & N so no dimensions.

Well, sort of. Circumference may be fine but the ID for the flange it needs to fit over on the bottom of the airbox cover is not. It only appears that it's tall enough because the flange on the cover is pushing down on the filter rather than slipping inside it as it should. The only concern I have with this is that the smaller ID of the flange fitting will restrict the airflow somewhat unless it's opened up. However, it doesn't mean it won't work and this is a good reference for anyone who needs a filter. I'd just want to figure a way to enlarge the ID of the filter to fit snugly over the flange. Even though it's not the exact correct height, it should be just barely tall enough that a snug fit on the flange would hold it in place just fine.



The K & N is 7.25 inches tall, correct. The width is 6". The top has a rubber flange [spigot end in plbg. lingo] that slides over the housing lid flange. Filter comes w/a 4.25" hose clamp to secure filter to lid. Filter bottom is sealed.

I figured that this is what you had done, and again, this is an excellent (I'd even say preferred) option for someone needing a filter who doesn't want to wait for a TMH shipment. However, the flange on the bottom of the airbox lid is slightly tapered and I'd be a little concerned about it slipping off during use without some support underneath. I would probably cut a short section of large diameter PVC pipe or something similar to place underneath it for support. How did you deal with the smaller ID of the opening on the filter?


The housing intake port is on the housing side[bottom]@ 2 o'clock. Even a filter of "proper" height would not admit air thru the filter bottom.
Maybe the K & N being "short" allows for better flow w/i the housing.

The original filter was open on both ends and sealed on each end against the top and bottom of the housing so it only flowed air through the sides and not the bottom. Of course, the K&N definitely gives better flow by it's very design. Not sure anyone cares to bother with calculating the specific fluid dynamics but I can see how it may give somewhat better flow inside the box due to the configuration.


If you want to get picky add K & N's filter cleaning/re-coat kit for another $12. So now you're up to approx. $70 for the whole she-bang.

FWIW, at the current exchange rate, the (also pre-oiled) TMH JR filter alone is very close to the price of the K&N at Autozone. Approximately $63.00 versus $52.00 plus tax and shipping. Unless, that is, you can find it on the shelf. Then only taxes are additional but that still puts it within a couple dollars of the TMH filter. My point here is that the TMH filter is most certainly NOT $100. Add the adapter for another $7.00 and you're up to about $70.00 plus shipping for a solution that is "plug-and-play" instead of one that still requires some amount of work to make fit correctly. Also, you pay NO tax for TMH parts and their "international shipping" is really not as bad as many make it out to be, especially since most of us tend to order several things at once, which further reduces the cost per item. In the end, you may actually spend $10-20.00 more for the TMH filter but all you have to do is install it and it's good forever. And performance-wise, the JR is the equivalent of the K&N.

With the limited amount of time I seem to have available for garage activities nowadays, I see that as a pretty good deal. An hour of my time is worth more to me than that but "your mileage may vary."

Please note that I still think that the information David has provided here is great and these are excellent additional choices for us owners who have such limited choices for these cars to begin with. I just wanted to ensure accurate cost comparisons and point out the potential pitfalls involved and additional "fitting" that's required.

[DJ]

Damn these cars, nothing is simple or straightforward.

Maybe you should just get yourself an old Volvo 240 instead. :eek: EVERY part is still available from the manufacturer and is relatively cheap. And the cars are incredibly simple to work on. I've been slowly renewing everything on my daughter's 240 and it's actually been a pleasure to work on.

Of course, they're not quite as pretty as a Lancia. :D

[davidb]

Thanks anyway, no Volvos D.J. . My LBZ AND Scorpion await Mssr.
Bodyshop. Agreed the FRAM CA 9345 does NOT properly slide over
the filter housing raised base. Which is it's virtue. Resting on top
of that vs. sliding over it provides the developed height to be snug
on top when you clamp the cover down. It's an $18 solution that
someone in the Forum may wish to try. As I stated the circumference
is almost perfect. As for the K & N fitting the filter housing lid/cap:
it slid right on. Zero problem, no radical/extreme O.D. vs. I.D.
diameter variance. I think the chances of the filter flange slipping
off the lid/cap flange is remote. Yet a bottom brace/riser might be
a prudent measure. Maybe I'm off on the price differential. I still
think one will save some dough buying domestically. Whatever . . .

[DJ]

Thanks anyway, no Volvos D.J.

:D


My LBZ AND Scorpion await Mssr. Bodyshop.

That'll be great and I'm sure you'll be pretty happy. That's a big step that made a big difference in my attitude. Just wish I still had a nice Beta now.


Agreed the FRAM CA 9345 does NOT properly slide over
the filter housing raised base. Which is it's virtue. Resting on top
of that vs. sliding over it provides the developed height to be snug
on top when you clamp the cover down. It's an $18 solution that
someone in the Forum may wish to try.

I agree it's a great find. I just worry about airflow restriction because, as we all know, the stock Scorpion has enough performance issues already. :(


As for the K & N fitting the filter housing lid/cap:
it slid right on. Zero problem, no radical/extreme O.D. vs. I.D.
diameter variance.

Very interesting. The manufacturer specs reflect a fairly significant difference and I would have never ordered one online based on that. K&Ns I've been able to put my hands on off-the-shelf over the years never fit that well but I haven't really looked since I got the TMH filter.

Another excellent find. I'd definitely go with some support underneath, though. It would be simple to fabricate.

[davidb]

Well I guess we've covered all the bases here. The odd, if not
goofy, thing was the inclusion of that clamp w/the filter. That
WILL help secure it to the housing lid/cap. Like somebody @
K & N said "Hey that'll slip right off a Scorpion air filter housing
lid/cap. Put a hose clamp in these boxes". Yeah right ! Wish I
had some 4" SDR thinwall PVC pipe remnants for a support. Sch.
40 weighs lots more. I agree a support is a prudent precaution.
Hopefully all my blathering has helped somebody.

[SubGothius]

While we're on the subject, I seem to recall someone here (Will, IIRC?) mentioning a while back that some cleanable/reusable Tyvek shopvac-style filter from, say, Home Despot would fit -- even remember some comment about how they'll say it's not rated for automotive use, but it does the same job just as well if not better... Maybe that was something that would just clamp on the intake hose but not necessarily fit inside the stock housing... :confused:

[davidb]

Yes it was Will who mentioned the Shop-Vac option. I wanted
a "proper" filter which is why I initiated a search/this thread.
Via this thread & PMs D.J. & I are in agreement the FRAM and
K & N I found ARE good fits. Not the perfect nor exact shape
like the NLA FRAMs but will work & work well. But NLA soooo?
Of course the TMH filters, paper or washable are fits too.

[Will]

Yes, Tye, that was me and I've taken a LOT of heat over the years for suggesting that you can find parts for our cars as close as the local big-box stores. Bernie Benz took heat for this too, and IMHO he was a mechanical genius, so I'm not taking it personally. The truth is, there is an ecomomy of scale and distribution model that makes a filter that sells in the millions much more practical than one that is made in the thousands and imported to specialty retailer. A filter is really just a filter, the particle size it filters down to and the dynamic pressure drop at the airflow we are talking about is all that really counts, except the filter has to not crush or blow out (these ones incorporate an expanded metal anti-crush screen). It's like the coolant pipes-particularly that straight 18" or so long one in the Scorpion- the OEM ones eventually corrode through because they are thin passivated steel, but a replacement is as cheap as a section of 1-1/4" copper tube, it's slightly heavier, but twice as thick, much more corrosion resistant, and a whole lot cheaper.

My experience is that some folks who want to support everything on "engineering" principle often are seriously logically misguided by their "engineering education". We get arguments like how the steel pipe is stronger than copper when it's irrelevant at 12psi. We get arguments about how that's not what a Shop-vac filter was "engineered for", but it makes no difference to the filter if it's in a shop-vac, your car, or my bead-blasting cabinet (and in the latter case it's even being used "backwards" albeit at lower CFM and works great).

I got booted off a forum similar to this one because I said a vendor's claims that head bolts needed a radius under the head to be strong were bogus. A couple of engineers or want-to-be engineers concurred, although in reality, that is completely incorrect. Why? because the high forces that cause bolt failure are concentrated on the ROOT of the last engaged thread. You can do whatever you want with the head of a bolt and it won't do squat as far as the loads in service, which are tensile loads. Finite element analysis proves this. Chemical dye stress analysis proves this. Their "engineering education" (read: institutional conditioning) would not let them accept this. So they had me run off. I don't blame them, I'm sure they thought they were right and I'm just crazy.
But I think people should know the truth, that there are only a couple of known ways to make a stronger head bolt, and they are increasing the material strength properties, increasing the size of the fastener, or altering the thread form in the block so that it changes the pressure angle and distributes the load along the fastener (this is how the Spiralock system works). There may be other, as-yet-undiscovered ways, but making the head of the bolt stronger isn't one of them!

I'm not knocking education or individuals here, I'm just saying that some people who say this thing or that thing doesn't work are sometimes wrong and sometimes haven't stepped back to consider the "big picture". It's very easy for these people to accept the assertions of those they think are their peers by virtue of similar education, etc.- as fact, without really vetting the theory being put forward.

As someone who gets BS'ed by "experts" regularly, I can tell you I always deconstruct every assertion and am also very wary of buying into solutions for problems that are not proven to exist (I can name a few). Please don't fall for this, people!

Nothing is so complicated that an expert should not be able to put it in layman's terms and help you understand, and for those who are engineers who read this, I beg you not to glaze over when somebody is talking about Brinell hardness when it does NOT have a direct correlation to cohesive affinity, and perpetuate some of the incorrect conclusions out there. Please be on your toes, some people have commercial agendas for propagating myths and thgose people may fit into your own peer group. Also, things can be used quite servicably in end-uses they were never designed for. In third world countries they make generators out of bicycle wheels and alternators driven from water wheels. Would you tell them this cannot do, they need a GE hydroelectric plant water turbine, because a bicylcle was not "engineered" to be a generator?

OK, I didn't mean to go on a rant, but David's use of "Proper" triggered this- a K&N filter is proper by the virtue of...it happens to be made by an automotive filter company? Have you tried even a water-column manometer test between the two? Does your PVC ring block off the inside cone of the K&N? If so, what effect does that have on the pressure differential? A filter, is a filter, and a ton of bricks and a ton of feathers weigh the same :)

[1341]

Hi,
I didnt want to start a new thread as some discussion has taken place regarding K&N air filters.

I seen a reseller listing scorpion and dino with the same air filter part number, I cross referenced with the K&N part number E-9240 and specifications were very close. Has anyone used this filter? Looks like a possible drop in fit with a 4" inside diameter.

Part Product Specifications
Product Style: Round Air Filter
Height: 8.5 in (216 mm)
Inner Wire: No
Inside Diameter: 4 in (102 mm)
Outside Diameter: 5.75 in (146 mm)
Top Style: Open
Top Material/Finish: None
Filter Material: Cotton Gauze

[1341]

I ordered one from K&N , got here in a day only $46. It fits perfect, 100%!

http://pavonet.com/pix/kn1.JPG
http://pavonet.com/pix/kn2.JPG
http://pavonet.com/pix/kn3.JPG
http://pavonet.com/pix/kn4.JPG
http://pavonet.com/pix/kn5.JPG
http://pavonet.com/pix/kn6.JPG

[Ed P]

If anyone is interested I have correct Scorpion air filters available for way less than $46.00

If anyone is interested email me directly:

pizza-store@hotmail.com

Ed
http://www.ItalianCarManuals.com