Car Show Judging/Parts Removal

[Timo04]

Does anyone know if the judges at "high end" car shows like Pebble Beach ect...remove panels, parts and other items on the car during the show when they are judging cars?

I watched a TV show on Corvettes aired the Speed Channel a while back and the show judges were actually removing parts to check out the originality of the cars! This is the first time that I have ever seen this type of thing and I was amazed.

Also I'm just curious is this judging "technique" of removing parts is a common practice at European car shows (held on the continent) as well or something that just the Corvette (or hot rod) show judges do?

Thanks in advance,

[1,6 HF]

Does anyone know if the judges at "high end" car shows like Pebble Beach ect...remove panels, parts and other items on the car during the show when they are judging cars?

I watched a TV show on Corvettes aired the Speed Channel a while back and the show judges were actually removing parts to check out the originality of the cars! This is the first time that I have ever seen this type of thing and I was amazed.

Also I'm just curious is this judging "technique" of removing parts is a common practice at European car shows (held on the continent) as well or something that just the Corvette (or hot rod) show judges do?

Thanks in advance,

I can't speak to the European concours, and I can't say I'm intimately familiar with the judging at Pebble (though I can ask a friend who is, if need be).

But at the Los Angeles Concours last June, the judges didn't even physically touch the cars--let alone remove parts. They leaned over and looked in the engine compartment (for a few cars, like an R5 Tiurbo, this meant that the owner had to remove some interior panels), and they checked the interior (again, without touching anything). They had the owner start the car to check the running and idling (this disqualified the ex-Keke Rosberg Williams F1 next to me), and they had the owner demonstrate all lights and signals (they waived the turn signal criteria for the March GTP on the other side of me). But the judges certainly didn't disassemble anything. As I said, they didn't physically touch the cars at all.

If I'm not mistaken, some Corvette judging (NCRS / Bloomington Gold) involves checking virtually every part for authenticity--something that's almost impossible to do if there are different makes of cars being judged; it'd be hard for every judge to know every make of car well enough. I suppose if you're only judging Corvettes--real 'apples to apples' judging--the only way to tell one from the other is the subtleties. Maybe you've got to take off the air cleaner to check if the assembly chalk marks on the underside are the proper shade of yellow, or whatever. And for a Corvette to qualify for a Duntov Award, everything (every switch, every gauge, every function) must work, and I suppose you might have to remove some cover pieces (that air cleaner, for example) to check all that.

But I think it's pretty much unique to those Corvette events. I don't believe that it's common practice anywhere else. A literal 'hands-off' approach seems to be the rule.

[Will]

I don't know what you saw or if the show was connected to an auction, but I think this is fairly common with the auctions, particularly muscle cars. Muscle cars bring a huge (read:crazy ass) premium for matching numbers, and it appears the auction houses are tryting to do due diligence as far as establishing a record of the numbers as well as the provenance of the vehicle, it makes aeverybody look bad when a buyer gets scammed, and in spite of insurance and lawyeys on retainer, I'll bet it takes a nice bite out of auction house profits when the paper starts flying.

I reckon a really rare car would have an established value and provenance, but for a Corvettes-only show I could see numbers and original unexposed components being checked because there may be cars that are otherwise indistinguishable on a points basis, Chevrolet built so damn many of the things. I know TWO guys with '62's, their cars are identical. I asked one of them once if somebody changed their vanity plates and ignition keys, how long would it take them to figure it out. The other one said "Mine is faster". No shit. (they actually have different tires, that's about it)

[Timo04]

Thanks Ed & Will for the replies and info. I spoke with a friend today who enlightened me that the TV show I was referring to was probably about the Bloomington "gold" class award judging for Corvette that you mentioned Ed. Evidently these Corvettes are judged on everything for originality, there are slight differences even depending on which factory or of course when the the particular car was produced for example a different distributor could be fitted, paint over spray for manifolds changes the list of details goes on and on.

[Charley]

I have never had a show judge ask to remove anything from my car,but I have had judges ask to see my jack (for which I had to pull up the trunk carpet).Also I have had judges run their hands along the bottoms of the door frames,and poke their heads under the car to look for stuff. I have been penalized about tire size (I have 185/65R 14 Sumatomo HTR 200's)because I can't seem to find a reasonably priced replacements for the original 175SR 14 Michelins,the only tires in that size I could find were Vredesteins from Universal Tire at $82.00 each.One judge commented,"Nice Japanese tires on that Italian car".I have also been penalized for the Delco battery I have installed.Personally,I think judging criteria can be carried too far when they look for items like tires,belts,hoses,clamps,batteries,etc.But that is just my opinion.
Oh,I forgot to mention I have been asked about emissions junk I have removed,(the EGR,and AIR systems) give me a break! If any judge thinks I am putting that ugly crap back on my pretty engine for the sake of "originality",they can go jump in the lake.

[Will]

Yeah Charley, I hear you loud and clear- but that goes double for Corvettes, Tim mentioned it was a show on 'vettes and that made my ears perk up because those folks are absolutely rabid, especially considering Chevy has been pumping them out for over half a century. This makes the market very finely-tuned for these cars, and some of them are quite pricey ($400K plus for a '53?) . this always amazes me. I mean, take the same engine, a better gearbox, Italian bodywork, and it's not worth as much as the stock vette is! Look at all the Intermeccanicas, Iso Grifo 7L's, etc. that are actually selling for less than the Chevys are! The Vette people have managed to skew the demand for these so hard that even with an abundant supply of them, they keep bringing top dollar. I just don't get it- Corvettes are nice cars and all, but I don't think any of them would even come in on my top 50 wish list? I dunno- maybe it's just me. I can't help but think a lot of those people are completely unaware what else is out there though. The fact that so many people buy those Escalades and ugly-ass Maybachs I guess puts us in the minority.

[1,6 HF]

An awful lot of the classic car "collector market" is stuck in a 'me-too' pack mentality--Corvette collectors certainly fall into this category, IMO. If you stick with the pack, you never have to think--just check off the boxes on your 'to-buy' list. And you get to spend quality time trying to tell your car apart from the other 12 exactly like it at any event you go to. From a market standpoint, too, it makes sense. It's easy to get market 'comps' on Corvettes; whatever permutation you're selling, the exact same permutation sold last year (or last month, or last week, or 3 lots back in the same auction), so you have a precise idea about prices and values. And a lot of that is comforting to many people. Of course, I own a Fulvia, so you can tell how much of it applies to me...

And I'm also with Charley on the subject of concours fanaticism; at the behest of the previous owner of my car, I did the LA Concours last June, and I won't be doing anything like that again soon. There are always exceptions, but there are too many judges looking for the original air in the original tires.