Importing an Integrale into the USA [Archive]

1,6 HF

20th November 2007, 02:57 AM

Greetings,

Is importing a Delta Integrale into the USA an impossible dream? I viewed one here in the SF Bay Area, CA a few weeks ago and the owner told me that he used his business's "dealer" status to import the car. How does this work?

Aside from the "dealer" status how can one legally purchase and import an Integrale into the USA?

Thanks in advance!

There's no straightforward, completely above-board way to import one, but there are in fact at least a handful in the country--testimony to the fact that nothing is impossible. I've seen 2 this year--one only 2 weeks ago.

However, unless you have a quasi-legal situation like that "dealer", the only ways are convoluted and open to the possibility of leaving you stuck with a car you can't register (or can't even get out of DOT impound). And things have gotten more difficult--even for completely legal, exempt cars--now that DHS is involved with all imports.

It really depends upon how determined you are, or how patient. They'll be 25 years old eventually...

Timo04

22nd November 2007, 07:28 AM

There's no straightforward, completely above-board way to import one, but there are in fact at least a handful in the country--testimony to the fact that nothing is impossible. I've seen 2 this year--one only 2 weeks ago.

However, unless you have a quasi-legal situation like that "dealer", the only ways are convoluted and open to the possibility of leaving you stuck with a car you can't register (or can't even get out of DOT impound). And things have gotten more difficult--even for completely legal, exempt cars--now that DHS is involved with all imports.

It really depends upon how determined you are, or how patient. They'll be 25 years old eventually...

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the advice/tips. If I ever get a chance to buy one of these cars it sounds like the safest and most sure way to secure one is to wait until the cars will be 25 years old. May you and yours have a Happy Thanksgiving!

P.S. I couldn't make the Cars of Italy/France show as planned this year and sure would have liked to have seen your beautiful Fanalone in person.

davidb

22nd November 2007, 08:21 AM

Do more research. Like getting one from Canada. W/enough patience,
money & some connections [knowledgable people] you can do it.
Shame you're not in a lax state like Missouri. The Dept. of Revenue
here for registering/licensing oddball vehicles, well they're morons.
I've gotten them to capitulate for me w/a fraction of the usual,
normal, required papers . Good luck !

Will

22nd November 2007, 08:51 AM

To legitimately import the thing you have to crawl through and endless maze of red tape, although there are some exceptions/exemptions for cars that are to be strictly competition vehicles. Naturally, this won't help you at registration time.

Ther is also an allowance for UN, state, and overseas military I believe, to bring in a car and register it, I believe this requires re-exportation after two years' time, but I don't know exactly how that is enforced since I know of several cars thet have been brought in this way and "abandoned".

Check w/Ron Norton about how his integrale got here, he told me when I ran into him at Carlisle a few years back but I was on. like. my 5th bottle of cheap shiraz and so I don't remember.

I do know of one person who had a friend drive an integrale down from Canada and "lose" it, AFAIK that car is currently not registered so I don't want to name names on the list, he is one of our northwest area members and an avid Lancisti and oddball-car collector.

There was a discussion of this way back when on the lanciascorpion yahoo group, and I think it was Scott Hay who posted a link to the DOT import rules; suffice it to say I read it, understood little of it, and remember even less. About all I got out of it was the message that if I wanted an Integrale, it would be easier to simply relocate my ass to the UK!

1,6 HF

22nd November 2007, 12:46 PM

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the advice/tips. If I ever get a chance to buy one of these cars it sounds like the safest and most sure way to secure one is to wait until the cars will be 25 years old. May you and yours have a Happy Thanksgiving!

P.S. I couldn't make the Cars of Italy/France show as planned this year and sure would have liked to have seen your beautiful Fanalone in person.

Hi Timo,

As others have mentioned, the preferred 'gray' method (and it's really dark gray) seems to be to bring it in through Canada, drive it to a lax state (like, say, Georgia) where you 'sell' it to a resident friend who registers it and then 'sells' it back to you. The trouble comes when you get back to (say) California where you can't leglaly keep it on Georgia plates and you can't transfer it at the DMV, unless you get lucky with a very bored clerk. Then all you need is a 'friend' at a smog check station...

But your original question asked about doing it legally, so you can forget the above. Better to save up and pick one up in a couple of years (in January, 1983 is 25 years old. That leaves you about 9-10 years short of an Evo, but only a couple of years short of an 8V, which is supposed to have better torque anyway. Do keep in mind though, that it'll still need to pass CA smog requirements; 2 years ago, CA froze the 'rolling' exemption for smog check.

And I'm sure I'll have the HF at next year's BoFI. I'm not sure where in CA you are, but if you're in the LA area, I take it to the weekly get-together at VCR in Agoura Hills at least a couple of Sundays a month--almost always on the last Sunday of each month.

davidb

22nd November 2007, 01:39 PM

1,6 HF

22nd November 2007, 02:18 PM

Kuddos to Ed for picking up on Canada & lax states. A friend in Georgia,
Missouri or wherever could renew the plates if registered there. As for
the car being in California I have no clue re:testing emissions, etc.
An honest Lancia owner should be able to have one in LA-LA land.
I guess a kazillion Beaners in S. L.A. emitting smog in wholey un-
registered, unlicensed, untitled, uninspected vehicles is the issue?
Hello Havana w/'56 Chevy's. Viva Castro! [Think D.J will censor this?]

David, if you've seen photos of LA in the '50s and '60s you wouldn't think that emissions controls and testing are necessarily a bad thing; the air is a lot cleaner than it used to be. I'm also guessing that you're not altogether familiar with LA (historically, South LA, also known as South-Central, is African-American--it's East LA that's historically Chicano). I don't spend a lot of time in either area, but I think you'd find that '96 Toyotas (with smog equipment) are a lot more common than '56 Chevys.

In any case, exemptions ought to be made for classic cars, which is why CA's previous rolling 30-year exemption (sorry--not 25 as I said earlier; 25 is the Fed exemption for import) made sense. The real problem now is that, in 2005, CA froze the exemption at 1975, which makes no sense at all. Any car newer than 1976, which obviously includes all Integrales, needs to pass biannual smog tests, to the standards of their year of manufacture. Some of the later Evos have cats, but it's a longer wait for those to be 25 years old.

davidb

22nd November 2007, 03:14 PM

I went off topic. California has too many cars, too many people.
And yes I've viewed the orange haze as I was on my way from
the L.A. basin up the hill west looking east @ dusk driving to
Encino. Point is California is, . . . dunno. Be nice if we were
allowed to import anything newer Lancia-wise. '82 to date.
Any state in the U.S.A. . Enough . . .

Timo04

25th November 2007, 02:19 PM

Thanks to all for the helpful info on this importation subject. I do have some friends in the states of Arkansas and North Carolina. I don't know how these states are for getting gray market cars registered? One possible way around the semi-annual smog checks here in California is to have a car registered as a historical vehicle. I am not sure on the age requirements or on any of the other details about having this historical registration done but I did see a Scorpion owner at the '06 Concorso Italiano in Monterey, Ca that had his car registered this way. He told me that he does not have to have his Scorpion go through the semi-annual smog inspections.

Ed,

I reside in the South SF Bay Area, near San Jose, so it is a bit of a hike to the LA area but not a hard drive at all. I really want to make that Best of France & Italy show someday as I have heard a lot of good things about it.

As a side note an acquaintance of mine up here in the Bay Area ran across a very nice 1.3 Fulvia HF some eight or so years ago that the Italian Embassy owned in down town San Francisco. He purchased this car, owned it for a few years, then sold it (he is mainly into Alfa Romeos) and he doesn't know what ever became of it. According to what he said the car was always stored inside, mostly original and in very nice condition. Darn, this all happened before I knew him!

1,6 HF

26th November 2007, 12:17 AM

Timo

This morning at a weekly area get-together someone had a Cosworth Escort and he and I discussed how his car got in (legally, through a gray market importer who's apparently no longer in business) and how he's trying to get an Integrale in and registered. The 'in' has already been taken care of, as DOT has just released his import bond, but he doesn't have the CA registration figured out yet. He does know someone else who had done it, and other than a different choice of states (Maine, not Georgia), the process he described was basically the one I outlined; he didn't seem to have a definite game plan (although it's always possible that he did, but simply didn't want to discuss it with someone he didn't know well).

As far as Arkansas or No. Carolina are concerned, you can check their state DMV sites for info. It's just a prejudice, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if Arkansas is more lax about registration than CA.

Historical plates are a way around smog check, but you have to get it registered in CA first, and be willing to certify that the vehicle is over 25 years old and will be "driven in historical exhibitions, parades, or historic club activities only" (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg17a.htm). But frankly, the smog check is the easiest part of the equation; a few years back when I had my Beta coupes, I learned that there are any number of stations that are friendly to classic cars...

And speaking of Best of France and Italy, someone did have an 8V Integrale there this year. The owner wasn't around when I saw it, otherwise I would have asked the obvious question. There was a very good Lancia turn-out this year.

And finally, regarding the side note, it wouldn't surprise me if that 1.3HF ended up down here in SoCal. There's a beautiful one down here (sadly, it's been "upgraded" to Fanalone specification, but that's another story). There are 8 or 9 1.3HFs in the US that I know of (my list has 9, but one may be double-counted).

Timo04

29th November 2007, 06:21 PM

Hey look at this listing on E-bay:

Item number: 120189722199

1,6 HF

29th November 2007, 06:46 PM

Well, I did mention that Georgia was one of those 'convenient registration' states. There are one or two things that seem a little funny, and the seller has 0 feedback, but he has a telephone number and non-eBay e-mail listed, so maybe it's legit. I'd sure want to ask about paperwork and DOT releases, though; a clean Georgia title may not be enough by itself.

Charley

30th November 2007, 07:24 PM

The ebay listing http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120189722199
The seller has this Delta Integrale HF 16v listed as a 1980?? I found through research thet these were only produced from 1989 to 1991! This leads me to believe that the description has the wrong year listed as a way to conceal the fact that it is not a 25 year old vehicle,and might be a real pain in the ass to get titled and registered in a state that has a gestapo run DOT (like Pa.). BUT...I would certainly love to have it,what a beauty!

Timo04

30th November 2007, 08:38 PM

1,6 HF

30th November 2007, 10:48 PM

Gentlemen,

Very good points you both make regarding this auction.

I also find it interesting that the seller states in the auction that "THIS GREAT RUNNING LANCIA CAN BE YOURS FOR ONLY 2,8K" What is this supposed to mean? Is this the reserve price?

Have a great weekend.

Timo,

There are a couple of reasons to be suspicious; that bizarre "2,8K" statement is only one of them. If not for the listed telephone number, I'd be suggesting that this can't possibly be legitimate. As it is there are still a lot of questions that need answers.

Charley's right to catch the 'back-dating'. For several years after Jan 1, 1968, when the import regulations tightened because of new safety standards, a number of '68s and '69s miraculously became '67s (the chassis plates didn't indicate date of manufacture). This ruse is much less likely to work these days. As I mentioned previously, it's important to know whether or not this car has DOT clearance.

But if it checks out, I'm with Charley--I'd love to have an Integrale.

Will

1st December 2007, 06:50 PM

Timo,

If not for the listed telephone number, I'd be suggesting that this can't possibly be legitimate.

Well, don't let that allay your fears- that number is the equivalent of a good old-fashined internet outdial. Remember those? It's currently listed as an ISP local dialup, but that's the beauty of the internet, it's so easy to exploit those poorly secured modems connected to it!

First one to give me a call from that number gets a prize :)

The complete lack of identifiable signage and missing plates on the (primarily non-US market) cars in the background along with the zero FB and yahoo email alone are enough to keep me from bidding on it.

I feel like asking the seller a question, that is: "If I send you a cashier's check for the sum of 50K US dollars drawn on my humble bank in Nigeria, will you send me the change and I'll have somebody pick up the car shortly thereafter? I have wanted a Lancer Delta Integral since my late father the Chief of The Ministry of Finance was dispatched in a coup and left his vast fortune which I am trying to keep from falling into the hands of our oppressive government and only you can help, as I got your email from a trusted mutual colleague."

Charley

2nd December 2007, 07:33 AM

Ha,that's a good one Will !! The only problem is (if you sent that message) the idiots at ebay would probably kick you off of ebay for fraud.:rolleyes:

Charley

2nd December 2007, 08:11 AM

I just checked out the bid history on the auction
http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=120189722199
He's obviously up to some kind of shenanagans with all those cancelled bids.':

Timo04

2nd December 2007, 10:19 AM

With regards to the car itself, check out both photos of the open rear doors. Carefully examine at the inner door jams. At about the halfway point up the door jam, it *appears* to me to change from the dark (black?) color to a red color. I could be seeing things in the photos but this looks to be a shoddy re-spray. However the engine bay looks decent and appears to be the match the rest of the car.

Also the inner front grille *appears* to be missing. If this car really exist and it is really for sale from a legitimate seller some kind of PPI is a must.

Are there any interested Lancisti on this board who reside near this seller's listed location in the state of Georgia who can view this car in person?

davidb

2nd December 2007, 02:37 PM

Just my opinion but . . . But when I see a car w/multiple
bids, & I'm talking 18 or so, then the car doesn't sell, then
it reappears on E-Bay again I smell a rat. Sometimes after
a 7 day expiration sometimes longer. A re-list for re-sale
that is. Now infrequently when there is an undisclosed
reserve not met that's different. That blue Scorpion in
Colorado arouses my suspisions. Sold, don't know. Honest
seller,don't know. E-Bay is fraught w/issues. Buying a
Lancia there lends caveat emptor a whole new meaning .
I really hope that HPE on E-Bay is worthy of restoration.
Dirty damn shame we kill ourselves to keep these cars
on the road & some thieves on E-Bay try to advantage
of our dedication & passion. Wordy huh ?

Charley

2nd December 2007, 06:36 PM

That auction ended with 40 bids cancelled,and one starting price bid of $200 made 2 seconds before the end.The bid history showed the reasons for bid cancellations as Explanation: "Sorry, but I must to revise this item",and some kind of ebay error.This left me wondering what this guy was really up to,but it obviously wasn't legitimate.:confused:

Will

2nd December 2007, 08:39 PM

Why all suspicious, guys? You could easily go take a look at the car, the auction is very clear that it's in Georgia.....

I'm thinking the COUNTRY of Georgia! Hahahaha!

cstorry

5th December 2007, 08:21 AM

Hi Will (and other Lancisti)

Long time no hear. I checked into Lancisti for the first time in a while and I find you guys talking about Integrales from Canada : )

You just happen to know someone in Canada that ownes an Integrale. Here's the scene in my driveway yesterday morning !

I'm going to drive my Integrale this winter, hope that the 1990's Lancia rustproofing together with Krown won't make me regret the decision.

This car is so much fun to drive I couldn't put it away for the winter.

regards
Chuck

Will

5th December 2007, 01:42 PM

I hate you Chuck.

Just kidding, that's great and I'm pretty sure the other guys share that sentiment! How are your other cars coming? Mine's in mothball, actually I think I'm more jealous of your space than your cars, I need to get some crap out of here, just had a lycoming engine, a ZF/Hurst V-drive transmission and a Volvo Penta outdrive added to the "to do" list. The Scorpion just never seems to rise to the top of the queue.

Timo04

5th December 2007, 08:54 PM

Hey guys,

This is not directly related to Integrales but this is that same "interesting" seller from last week that had that "1980 Integrale" up on E-bay for the low price of 2,8K!?! Now he is back at it with a 2nd series Appia sedan ref E-bay Item: 120193864465.
This same Appia sedan I believe belonged to Jaan Hjorth here in the SF Bay Area a several years ago.

Wow a Lycoming rebuild job I take it? I'd love to see some pics of that engine Will.

Very nice Integrale Chuck, must be great for the driving in the snow too!

cstorry

6th December 2007, 09:28 AM

The Integrale has been "fun" and we had a very early winter this year so I lucked out I guess.

I was running the "summer" tires until a couple days ago. It really understeers and the ABS is always kicking on as the car slides to a stop. Its a completely different car now with the snow tires on - but you still have to pay attention when the boost kicks in on icy roads - think 4 wheel sideways slide : )

I'm being sucked into the "dark-side" with turbos, electronic engine management, etc but my volumex/volumetrico projects are still on the todo list. The scorps, monte and spiders are all resting for the winter.

Chuck

Charley

6th December 2007, 05:03 PM

1,6 HF

6th December 2007, 06:43 PM

That auction must have been pulled.I wonder why? I REPORTED HIM TO EBAY ON HIS PREVIOUS TRY! ;)
His previous scam with the Integrale, # 120189722199 appears to have been removed from ebay's data also.

It was pulled because it was a scam. I alerted Jaan Hjorth, whose car it is, and he contacted eBay.

Thanks to Timo04 for spotting this first.

Charley

6th December 2007, 08:40 PM

Good!!! I'm glad they kicked him off ebay.I hope there is an arrest or some legal repercussions for his scams!

1,6 HF

7th December 2007, 12:34 AM

Charley,

I hope you're right, but it's likely he'll be back. Unfortunately, arrest and criminal prosecution is incredibly unlikely.

Timo04

10th December 2007, 07:00 PM

It was pulled because it was a scam. I alerted Jaan Hjorth, whose car it is, and he contacted eBay.

Hi Ed,

As you know this same type of scam has been attempted in the past with some of Jaan's other Lancias that he has sold on E-bay. Thanks for contacting Jaan and having this auction pulled. The scammers must not realize that the Lancia following, espcially here in the USA, is a small, tight group of folks that have long memories. :) I may be wrong, and I hope I am, but I believe it is next to impossible to try and catch these E-scammers.

I normally would not post private e-mails on a public forum but now that we understand this seller to be a scammer and for the benefit of everyone on the board below is an exact copy of the e-mail I received from the seller of that same Delta Integrale, who was the same seller of Jaan's old Appia sedan:

"Hello,

First of all, I must apologize for my reticence with selling my car. I love this car and it means a lot to me. The car is currently located in Ray City GA, but unfortunately I am in Austin TX, planning to open a business here and i don't think I can come sooner then next month. The car is like new, completely working, perfect running condition, with no hidden damages or accidents,it has always been kept in garage. The car is insured in case of damage and you will receive it at your door in 5 working days. It will come with all the necessary papers (clear title, bill of sale, warranty documents, user's manual).
Regarding the payment i am aware of the buyer's protection and we will use Ebay's motors vehicle purchase protection program which will hold the payment until you receive the car. Forms of payment must be made through bank wire transfer to an eBay motors representative. By making a deposit you are not buying the car, is just the way the program works( and in case you buy the car it will give you a 1 month 1000 miles guarantee). However, it is 100% refundable if the car is not as described.
The total price is $2,800 with shipping included(if necessary in the continental US),since my brother in law works at DAS and he promised me that it will cost me nothing to ship it to you. The car will come with the clear title and you will register it in your state without problems.
If you are interested about this car, please provide me the following information's necessary to take a decision:
-your full name and address for shipping.
-Ebay ID
-your phone #
-any negative feedback and if so... for what reason.
Once again i apologize for requesting this, but i need to be sure that i am dealing with interested people as i really do not have much time to spear.

...waiting for your fast answer, John Reynolds"

If someone innocently responds with the info the seller is requesting now he will give away a physical address, E-bay ID, e-mail address, plus a phone number, all bits and pieces of an ID.

HTH.

1,6 HF

10th December 2007, 09:06 PM

Hi Ed,

As you know this same type of scam has been attempted in the past with some of Jaan's other Lancias that he has sold on E-bay. Thanks for contacting Jaan and having this auction pulled. The scammers must not realize that the Lancia following, espcially here in the USA, is a small, tight group of folks that have long memories. :) I may be wrong, and I hope I am, but I believe it is next to impossible to try and catch these E-scammers.

Hi Timo,

Oh, I'm quite aware that this has happened before; Jaan's reaction was 'not again!', as this was maybe the 4th or 5th time I'd alerted him about one of his cars being scammed. My own HF was scammed a couple of months ago, and I was alerted by someone on the Alfa BB even before I found it myself.

There's no practical way to catch these guys. But you're quite right--we're a small enough community that we can try to watch each other's backs.

Will

11th December 2007, 05:31 AM

Well, you can try to minimize the risk by not having a complete "set" of pictures of your car showing the various angles, engine, etc. without watermarking the picture. This will make it harder for the scammer to convince people that the car is in his posession. My .02

Tim, I was wondering why you were interested in the Lycoming, then I realized you must think it's an auto motor, none of the parts I mentioned are car parts (sadly, as the Lycoming auto motors are worth a fortune I think). Anyway, the one I have (or rather several boxes of parts) is a run-'o '-the -mill aviation motor, and no, I'm not rebuilding it. first of all, I'm not certed for that, and also this lump has seen its last TBOH. This one is getting turned into a "cutaway" display and donated to a local museum, the task fell to me because I have a small CNC mill and need to get up to speed on the software aspect of operating it, so making the "free form" style cutouts in 3D space seems like a good way to do that. I'm online now searching ebay for a motor and gearhead we can use to make it an animated display, but since this project has a budget of exactly $0 it may end up with a crank on the front of it (Barient sailboat winch handle). OK, more than you wanted to know, I'm sure :)

Timo04

11th December 2007, 06:44 PM

Tim, I was wondering why you were interested in the Lycoming, then I realized you must think it's an auto motor,

Will,

Just thought it would be nice to see a pic or two as Lycoming built engines for some important American vintage cars like Auburn, Cord, and Dusenberg. Forgot to mention: have fun with that CNC and making that cut away model!

HF Stinger

14th March 2008, 01:37 PM

I have followed this thread for a while and its KILLING me to not own one of these cars. I know a friend of mine had a Canadian version of the '86 Honda VFR750, the whole time he owned it he maintained Canadian plates on it. I had a Canadian Suzuki RG500gamma which had been brought in by a Bombardier sales rep and he managed to get an Illinois title (our residence at the time) for it and never had any issues.

I have to pose the question, how do all the Oregon registered scam vehicles pull it off... I mean if any police officer sees one of these plates he is guaranteed a nice healthy ticket for it. The percentage of legitimately registered Oregon cars throughout the country has to be quite low.

So, another twist. If I were to register it to myself in Canada, and drive it here in the States, would that get me out of alot of red tape - except for just not having it registered where I live? His Honda was registered to him, but to an address in Canada...

If I can figure out a sure fire way, Im selling my UrQuattro and preparing for an Integrale...

Timo04

18th March 2008, 08:44 PM

If I can figure out a sure fire way, Im selling my UrQuattro and preparing for an Integrale...

Sean,

I hear you man. I could be wrong but I don't think there is any way to get these cars into the USA legally outside of waiting until they are over 25 yrs old or having a dealer's license. Have a good one and don't sell the Audi.

HF Stinger

31st March 2008, 12:40 PM

Sean,

I hear you man. I could be wrong but I don't think there is any way to get these cars into the USA legally outside of waiting until they are over 25 yrs old or having a dealer's license. Have a good one and don't sell the Audi.

I have been looking through the import regs and how Im interpreting it is regardless of age, the Delta just can't be brought in legally as a street driven car. You have the racing / show option with the mileage restrictions based on the vehicles "significant historic value".

Nonetheless there are a few here and I need one ;o)