Cleaning out the fuel tank ... tips?

[FinnJohn]

G'day! So I finally bit the bullet and pulled my gas tank. Could not get it to feed enough volume to keep the injectors pressurized, or at least that's my best guess as to why it was behaving like it was. Peering down into the hole in the top where the gas gauge sensor goes, I see an orange wonderland and I'm despairing of ever being able to clean it out. Do any of you folks have any tips or ideas, products that can be used or techniques? Also, there are six tubes leading into the tank; I'm assuming the four on the top are vents, but of the other two, I can only get compressed air to blow through one; is that normal? Maybe I need to call Roto-Rooter.

I could pull the tank out of the parts car but I suspect it won't be much better.

There was a tremendous amount of orange crud in that tank. Just astonishing. I can't believe it ran at all.

Thanks for any advice you can give!

--Finn (blue 81 Beta Zagato, FI 1995cc of course, parked outdoors since at least 1995)

[Fingers]

Try this stuff http://www.por15.com/prodinfo.asp?grp=FTRK&dept=11

It's supposed to work wonders and from what I've seen of the other products I've used it should be as good as they say.

It's supposed to remove any rust scale from inside the tank.

[Jim Fierst]

The POR 15 kit is supposedly the way to go if you are a DIY guy. At $68 plus shipping you may want to contact a couple of the local radiator shops. A lot of them do it as they have the facilities to boil it then get the rust out.I had a tank cleaned and sealed for $100.

[DJ]

I can highly recommend the POR 15 kit.

It did wonders for my Scorpion tank Made it all nice and shiny inside, and the new coating is really nice.

[FinnJohn]

Quick update ... after letting the tank dry out for a couple days, I came back to it today. It looks like there's a big deep dish type thing in the tank that I assume is a baffle around the gas gauge sender, and it also looks like it protects a big crude pickup screen around the fuel intake that looks like a canister filter but couldn't possibly be (no way to change it!). This dish was about an inch deep in a silt-like orange crusty-powder substance; I'm pretty sure that's why I couldn't get fuel sucked in consistently ... anyway, I dislodged most of it with various tools, vacuumed it out with a Shop Vac, then blasted a couple cans of carb cleaner in from various angles and sloshed it around. Suddenly the tank is looking much better!

There's an amazing array of spaghetti coming out of the tank: five 5/16" lines and two 1/2" lines. Of the bunch, four little ones appear to be vents, one big one a return line, the other big one a supply line and the other little one -- haven't figured that out yet! Anyway, I confirmed that the supply line is clear, then took the old crappy gasoline I drained from the tank (roughly 2 gallons, which I left to settle out in old Mason jars) and poured it back into the tank to slosh around and hopefully wash out more crud. When I got it to come mostly clean, I set the tank back out to dry and went and bought more fuel line.

Tomorrow I'll install it. Woohoo! Maybe it'll run now!

On a related note, I accidentally almost bought high-pressure FI line for the vents. "Seventy-eight ninety five," says the guy at CarQuest. When I figured out my error and had him swap the $9-a-foot high pressure line for $1-a-foot regular fuel line, he took it personally. Guess I'll be buying my stuff at NAPA from now on ...

More tomorrow after I get it crammed back into place!

--Finn (81 Beta Zagato in the Corvallis, Ore. area)

[FinnJohn]

Update as promised: Tank lines went on and tank went back in with beautiful smoothness; only took about an hour. The car started out strong but then started cutting out under load again, exactly how it had before -- causing much frustration until I smelled the gas. I'd neglected to fully tighten a clamp just downstream from the fuel pump, where the pressure is high. Once that was fixed, the car was almost completely symptom-free!

I took the long road to the gas station. Ironically enough, now it coughs and sputters at low speed, low power output situations like the school zone, but beats its chest and howls happily when the throttle is opened up. I suspect this is a fuel injector issue resulting from running so much bad gas through the engine. I can live with it, though, and I figure I'll just keep running Lucas fuel cleaner through until it gets better.

So, a happy ending! So far. Now all I gotta do is replace the front brake pads, fix the dash lights, replace the stereo, replace the broken-off windshield wiper switch, fix the engine cooling fan, fix the passenger side armrest so it attaches to the door again, fix the leaky windshield seal and several other things I'm forgetting right now. Oh yeah, the heater fan. How could I forget?

Cheers!

--Finn

[davidb]

Good for you. Not to rain on your parade but I think you're
far from done. NEW injectors would/can make a world of
difference once you are positive the lines are clean/clear.
Of course you replaced the fuel pump/filter too ?

[FinnJohn]

Good for you. Not to rain on your parade but I think you're
far from done. NEW injectors would/can make a world of
difference once you are positive the lines are clean/clear.
Of course you replaced the fuel pump/filter too ?

Filter yes, pump no -- I'd planned to, but hadn't been able to locate one before the rains hit, so I just left the old one in there and hoped for the best. I'm actually glad now that I didn't because I want to run the system for a few months to clear out all the floating crud before I start switching out injection system parts. The fuel pump is probably not running at top efficiency, but neither would a new one be after a couple months of pumping all the silt and rust flakes that I couldn't reach when I cleaned it ...

Cheers!

--Finn

[Jim Keller]

You don't need a pump...yet, your tank is still full of crud, the stuff is like mucky sand, you simply can not slosh it around and rinse it out. I have been down that road too many times. What you need to do is take it to the radiator shop, have them boil, flush and line the tank, but first, remove the pickup sock/screen from the pickup tube in the tank as the linning stuff will seal it shut too. Linning the tank will lock all the remaining crud down to the sides of the tank. It doesn't matter how much you rinse, slosh, power wash, you can not get all the lose rusty crud out of the tank so it must be lined to lock it down, your radiator shop again can do this, last one Idid 7 years ago they charged me $45, I hear the guys in the big city areas have to pay upwards of $100 to $150 for the service but it is money very well spent!
Unlike the Scorpion tank that has no screen over the pickup, this one does, as does all FI cars, and it HAS to be torn out prior to using the linning stuff because the tank lining stuff will plug it.
Remove the pickup sock or screen, what ever you want to call it with a pair of very long nose needle pliers and a long screw driver working thru the sender hole to tear the screen off the pickup tube, you'll end up with a small amount of screen still on the tube where it was factoy crimped on, that will not cause any problem, it's a real "B", but it has to be done to solve your problems, the pickup screen is still getting plugged from all the mucky sandy silt in the tank you thought you had rinsed out. The car is probably starting up fine and drives great for a block or two then goes into spasms, (once your fuel gets stirred around from driving), that repeatedly damn near throws you out the front windshield followed by slamming you back into the seat when the engine roars back to life for just a second or two, then tosses you back at the windshield again with a good case of whiplash when it tries to stall! LOL I know it's hurt my neck before, especially that 81 Zag that was my first fuel tank nightmare!
If the car ends up burning up the fuel pump from fuel starvation before you get the tank fixed, (the pump must have cool gas flowing at all times to keep it cool and from burning out), use the Master Craft brand with life time warranty from Autozone, they run about $70 compared to the Bosch unit at over $300, (ask for a 1982 Fiat Spider 2000 pump if they dont' show the Beta, same pump, although I think they list it now for Beta), I have not had one of those go bad yet. And of course, change the filter once the tank is all cleaned by the pros and lined to lock the crud down dont' bother with the filter till the tank is done.
You do not have to follow my advice on this, but it will save you a lot of frustration and thoughts of slitting your wrists if you do! ha ha

[FinnJohn]

Thanks Jim! Hadn't thought of the radiator shop. Next time I pull the tank out in the spring, I'll probably do exactly that. I don't know how but I seem to have dodged most of this bullet, the silt was mostly in that dish thing and the ol' Shop Vac took care of the majority of it and the car runs about a thousand percent better ... but still I get the occasional hiccup. Plan right now is to wait til spring running Lucas injector cleaner, then take everything apart, clean it all out again, replace the pump, filter and all the rubber in the entire fuel system, and get the injectors rebuilt/replaced. Most of the problem I have now is with low-load situations, like driving through a 20-mph school zone in third. It stutters and misses like you wouldn't believe, but roars gamely to life when I open the throttle.

Cheers!

--Finn

[Charley]

Ok,here is my two cents.I had to deal with the Dreaded Beta fuel tank crap also.When I first bought my 75 Coupe about 4 years ago I had the same problems.The stuff would clog the filter in 300 miles.I THOUGHT ABOUT THE POUR IN LIQUID LINER BUT,I tried a similar product years ago in a Dodge van and it made a real mess inside the tank,the gas then looked like orange Jello. SO I decided to try the radiator shop fix and have it boiled out.Well,when I reinstalled the tank,everything seemed fine but after 300 miles I was still seeing a little bit of the red junk in the filter.I figured I would change the filter and give it some more time.Well guess what? The tank was puking out more of the crap than ever, now it was worse (after the tank was boiled by the radiator shop).I put up with this headache for a couple of years.Then I met guy at a car show who suggested that I get the tank repaired at a place that had a franchise called tank-renu.The franchise has service centers nationwide,I sent my tank to a Tank-renu center in Greensburg,Pa. called Moyer's Tankrenu.Their web site gave great info on the restoration process,and instructions on how to ship the tank to them.They completely clean the tank in a rolling tumbler,then repair any holes or leaks,then coat the inside with a special sealant,then coat the out side with a nice flat black sealant.It cost me about $450 as I rememember.The tank has not given me any more problems.They guarantee the tank forever against rust or leaks,and it is honored at any franchise center.In my opinion it was well worth the money,the tank looks brand new and the fuel has been clean as a whistle for the last year or so.NO MORE CRAP! Here is a link to Moyer's web site.You won't regret having them fix your problem.
http://www.gas-tank.com/

[Jim Keller]

If you can spend the money, that is a good way to go. there is also another place I read about on either this web site, or maybe Mirafiori, I think is in NC that actually cuts the tank open, bead blasts the tank inside and out and welds it back together making it basically a new tank with no linning material needed, cost is about the same as you paid. The tank renu guys are basically doing the same thing a rad shop will do except the rolling part, if you have a good rad shop like I do here locally, they will do a great job and you will have no junk left. The linning material will turn the gas red at first if you use the tank before it totally dries, it takes a few weeks for the stuff to totally set up, but will eventually set up and not do that. I have had four tanks boiled, cleaned and lined by our local rad shop since 99 when I had the first one done and have never had any further problems, nor have the purchasers of the cars I had the work done on, and I have never been charged more than $75 for the service.

[davidb]

If you do injectors try Vicks. They list re-built ones for
$60 per. 'Course 'ya gotta send them your old ones .
New ones are around $150 per. Look @ the fuel rail
real close when it's out. You'll have the cold start
valve exposed @ this point. Your call as to replac-
ing it. Consenus is they don't fail often. I went ahead
& replaced mine. Don't know if the old one was bad.
I doubt it, but out it came.

[DJ]

If anyone needs fuel injectors, they should look here:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=NIE&MfrPartNumber=57519&PartType=677&PTSet=A

$47.99 each! I just bought a new set for my Scorpion. They also sell remans (probably original Bosch) for about 98.00 which is still a pretty good price.

The Niehoffs are brand new, appear to be very good quality, work perfectly, have a 1 year warranty, come WITH new hoses, and are delivered right to your door.

An excellent deal as far as I'm concerned.

[davidb]

Good for you D.J. [advise]. Then someome should go
for those. Finding Lanica parts are a bitch [I should
tell you]. I've found that dealing w/Vicks is a genuine
pleasure. If they send you the wrong part you send
it back, immediate credit issued. I've grown SOOO
GOD-DAMN of dealing w/2ndary or teritiary sources who
don't know what a Lancia is. Worse yet:you buy the
part,wrong part? They say eat it. Not an ad for Vicks.
I know they satisfy their customers. Working on these
cars are bad enough. Dealing w/flacky suppliers only
makes things worse. C.Obert has many a rare part, he
knows it. And Brother does he charge for same !!!!!!!!
Sound like a Will Holding RANT in general ? Well . . . . .