Beta Trans Oil Find

[KeppelmanJ]

I've found a good combo for smooth, easy shifts warm or cold. 2 qts Mobil 1 15-50 plus liquid friction reducer sold by Dodge dealers. The friction reducer is sold in 4 oz plastic bottles at Dodge parts depts. You'd never know 2nd gear was famously balky when cold. I'd had troubles getting into reverse cold and that's gone too.

[DJ]

Interesting.

You aren't having any problems with that synthetic oil leaking out?

I stopped using all synthetics because they leaked so badly.

[KeppelmanJ]

No sign of leaks yet, but the change is only a couple weeks old now. I'd be surprised at a leak since the oil has been MTL since the mid 80s or so.

[davidb]

Sure hope that fluid "holds" for you . Remember a post from J.
Keller long, LONG time ago . Said stay w/hydrocarbon sulfer-
less oil like GL-1 . Vick has the stuff . Good luck . . .

[sickchilly]

Synthetics leaking?! Whatever... check your seals. I've always run Redline MT-90 in FIAT/Lancia trannies. Butta smooth. No 2nd gear crunch when cold. I tried GL-1 first in both my 124 and Beta... it was utter crap in both. Molasses might have been better.

[Will]

HHAHAHAHA!!! Good one, Trent! My car's seals are tighter than a brand new Harley Davidson, which is to say that my garage floor is now pretreated so coolant drips bead right off! :D

If only they sold Viton-in-a-spray-can!

[DJ]

Synthetics leaking?! Whatever... check your seals. I've always run Redline MT-90 in FIAT/Lancia trannies. Butta smooth. No 2nd gear crunch when cold. I tried GL-1 first in both my 124 and Beta... it was utter crap in both. Molasses might have been better.


Exactly the opposite of my experience. Redline synthetic was OK but certainly not "Butta smooth" by any stretch of the imagination. And it leaked a good bit. (Seals are fine.) Same with synthetics in the engine. GL-1 was noticeably better but still not acceptable to me. SAE 40 motor oil, as originally recommended by Lancia, made a significant difference and gave me the best shifting I've experienced in both the Scorpion and the (ex) Zagato. And no leaks!

[sickchilly]

So two moles are peeking up out of their hole in the ground... The first one says to the second one, "dude, did you see that?" The second one says "heh, yeah, that was pretty cool."

The third mole, who was still stuck down in the hole blocked by the other two says, "hey, no fair... all I see is Moleasses!"

Yea, um, anyway... I have nothing further to add to this thread! Other than I love my MT-90 of course. ;D

[davidb]

I'll be darned, D.J.'s right . On page 60 says AGIP SAE 85-90W,
ESSO+ SAE 40W or Mobil HD 50W ['81 Beta Owners manual] .
I just put GL-1 90W in both my Beta & Scorp so too late for me .
Plus w/new bushings in each they're still notchy as hell so
I couldn't "feel" a viscosity diff. even if I changed oil . I guess
the 90W being thicker, might be less prone to seal leakage .
Can't feature running 40W w/bad seals: kitty litter time .

[DJ]

I'm certainly no expert on lubricants but, as I understand it, motor oil and gear oil use different grade/weight systems. Supposedly, SAE 40 motor oil is roughly the same weight as 80-90 gear oil so you won't have any different experience with the SAE 40 leaking over the gear oil.

[davidb]

Me no petro-chem engineer either but I thought viscosity was viscosity .
Still odd they'd list 85-90W which should be gear oil & the the other two
which should be crankcase oil . Maybe you're right D.J. about a different
viscosity grading sytem for different apps . Just confuses the issue . One
thing I DO KNOW: NO sulfer EP oil in our cars, period ! Enough . . .

[KeppelmanJ]

Well, look what I have wrought, the old oil debate in tranny guise. Sorry. Age old bane of vehicle forums. I should have known better. Problem is that "better" shifting is hard to quantify and bearing failure is likely years down the road. Like cancer and cigs. Still, I'll enjoy these buttery shifts...

[Will]

Johnny;
You are so right- and this topic is sooooo subjective we'll never get a "correct" answer, but thanks for posting your experience.

DJ- seals are "fine" and "leak" in same sentence is an oxymoron. What you really are saying is that the seals don't leak with what you choose to run in it, this does not mean the seals are fine, it means that you choose to use material that is within the limited servicability of your seals. Right?

And anyway, don't our cars run on olive oil?
More to the point, what the heck is going on over in Italy that they have all of these extra virgins around???

[DJ]

DJ- seals are "fine" and "leak" in same sentence is an oxymoron.

Not at all, Will. It's a well established fact that synthetic lubricants will cause leaks in engines (and attendant gaskets/seals) that were not designed for them and I've experienced that exact situation, even in my engine that had all new seals. Heck, even the oilpan and tranny drain plugs leaked and required sealant. Don't have those problems with "regular" lubricants. Something about synthetics having smaller molecular structure, etc.

As John said, it's one of those things that can be debated forever. But I personally don't feel the need, nor have the inclination, to completely re-engineer every aspect of a perfectly good design, just so I can use more expensive products that provide arguable "benefits" in the end. Good old mineral-based lubricants are relatively cheap, easily available, and work as well as, or better than, anything else I've tried.

If I was building a race engine, perhaps I'd go there.

[DJ]

A quick quote from the AMSOIL website regarding the differences in gear and motor oil weights.


Most people assume that SAE 90 gear oil is much thicker than SAE 40 or 50 grade motor oil. However, they are the same viscosity. The difference is they are calculated by different classifications, SAE gear lube and SAE engine oil.

[davidb]

We can speculate until hell freezes over, but w/global warming ?
I know it was FULL RACE but I'd be curious to know what those guys
rallyed w/in an 037 ? Their gear oil had to somwhat close/compatible
to a stock Scorp or late Beta ? Whatever . . .

[Will]

DJ: I was born at night, but hey man,not last night, I'm aware of the differences with synthetics but I don't say they "cause" leaks in an engine. I say they may leak from an engine that (already) doesn't seal tightly enough for synthetics.

To borrow a phrase from the gun lobbyists, synthetics don't cause leaks, people that use synthetics cause leaks!

Can't say I've personally had a failure that I could specifically point to Dino oil, though. Not enough oil, yeah. But that doesn't really count, because I don't know whether synthetics would have made a difference.


-Will
(user of M1 and RP in various applications without leaks)

PS> David, I'd agree with you except that the gearboxes are totally different- cars like the 037 and the Rally Montecarlos used ZF boxes with straight cut gears and no synchros (I think). These gearboxes are typically noisier and hard to shift, typically not what you'd want on your street car. Of course, in your street car 450HP at 9000RPM would spit gear teeth out the bottom of your transmission casing for sure. The closest I've ever come to having to deal with these is driving a car with a Hewland box, relatively tame by comparison and I'm sure Johnny K has driven same and would provbably agree, he is one of the **very knowledgeable** old-timers (weelll, in my book anyway) and if he says it works great for him, I'd take that to the bank. Problem is, a lot of people mistake poor shifting for other problems (mechanical) and everybody has a different yardstick. I'm pretty sure JK is much more sensitive to these types of nuances than I am.

[DJ]

Geez, Will. OK so maybe I used one word too many. How's this?

It's a well established fact that synthetic lubricants will cause leaks in engines (and attendant gaskets/seals) that were not designed for them...

It doesn't change the point, though. You inferred that there was probably something wrong with my seals and I challenge that. Absolutely nothing wrong with my seals. They just weren't engineered to contain fluids like synthetic lubricants.

Plastic sandwich bags hold water just fine, too. But there are plenty of other fluids that will go right through them. That's pretty much the concept of Gore-tex and other permeable membranes. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with them.

Heck, I use synthetics in various applications with no problems, too. But they still leak if I put them in my Lancia.

[Will]

You make it sound like syns pass through the OEM seal rubber like osmosis. I will put money on the theory that if you start a new engine build and tension the seals a bit more than you are used to and seal the seal to the carrier, and seal the carrier bolt threads and other block penetrations, etc.- that you can make a motor that doesn't leak on syns. Heck, some of the stock motors don't. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Same with the PS fluid. If your seals are fine (meaning perfect rather than adequate apparently), but they leak on syns but another motor's doesn't, what are those seals, fine-plus? I think most FIAT guys take the seal right out of the package and just bang it into the carrier and slam the thing onto the block. You can get away with this more often with dino oil too, I'll agree with that. Tensioning the seal and shimming it so it's not on the worn part of the crank goes a long way, in my opinion. I agree that a motor is more likely to leak a synthetic since they have better penetration and film strength, but I don't think you can predict with certainty that they will leak, and I don't think it has much to do with the seal design or material, but rather the installation and how well the other stuff on the block was buttoned up. Just my opinion, of course.

Long term, then maybe it has to do with the material if the synthetics are actively attacking the seal material, but I don't think it's the root cause of motors "springing leaks" on synthetics, certainly not when the leaks appear a day into running synthetic. I know that there are people who do, I just don't agree.

[Will]

as an addendum to the above post, I found the following interesting.I'm not picking on DJ, he's certainly entitled to his own opinion, and I believe his happens to be the predominant one among FIAT owners. One thing I've noticed is FIATs/Lancias have really crappy stock finishes on the head and ends of the block, it looks like they were milled with a chainsaw. This goes for all the ones I've ever seen. Not at all like today's cars, or even many other cars of the era. I found the following link interesting:

http://www-d0.fnal.gov/~jkrane/cars/synth_survey.html

[DJ]

This REALLY is a silly discussion. Why is it that when someone simply relates personal, real world, experience about such things, it always seems to have to turn into a massive debate about what CAN be done?

Of course, the answer to that one is simple. Most anything CAN be done.

But why in the world would I want to disassemble my entire engine and transmission and go to all the trouble of specially sealing every gasket, seal, and fastener when I can simply use readily available gaskets, seals, and OEM specified lubricants and torque settings that work perfectly? (OK, so I DO always go the extra measure and spray my cam tower gaskets with copper sealant because they are such a pain to replace when they ultimately leak.) Simply to be able to use more expensive lubricants that provide very little benefit in the end, anyway? And especially for a street engine that will never see the kind of use that most cars see?

I never said that you can't make a TC leak-tight to synthetics, nor did I ever challenge anyone who says their engine or tranny doesn't leak with them in it. I only noted that it does happen quite often to new AND old engines that are otherwise OK with mineral oil. And you can find this same thing on pretty much every other car forum out there.

But, going back to my original point, my Scorpion and Beta transmissions shifted worse with the synthetics, not better. My personal experience only. Yes, the Redline stuff was much better than the stuff that was in there previously. But what I've actually found is that most folks who so steadfastedly champion the synthetic gear oil have never ACTUALLY TRIED using the simple SAE 40 motor oil as specified by FIAT and Lancia. They've only gone to synthetic from some other gear oil and, finding a marked improvement, would rather spend hours debating the damn issue than actually doing a little trial. It's just possible that they're missing how nice their transmission really can be.



If your seals are fine (meaning perfect rather than adequate apparently), but they leak on syns but another motor's doesn't, what are those seals, fine-plus?

No, just likely different in some way. However, I just realized that you seem to be viewing the term "seals" in a different way that I am. I'm really talking about seals in a global sense, as in all sealing surfaces. If you are talking specifically about the crank and cam-end seal, I've never had a problem with those leaking. But the "seal" on my drain plugs always leaks with synthetics. The "seal" on my cam covers always weeps with synthetics. The "seals" between my gearbox casing pieces always leak with synthetics. And the "seal" on my oil pan gasket always weeps a GOOD bit with synthetics. (On my new engine I actually used a sealant there, although I've never had to in the past.)


I think most FIAT guys take the seal right out of the package and just bang it into the carrier and slam the thing onto the block.

Probably correct. That's how they were designed. (and for "Dino" oil). I now use a bearing retainer fluid on them to hold them in place because of a problem I had with a bad carrier one time.


Tensioning the seal and shimming it so it's not on the worn part of the crank goes a long way, in my opinion.

How does one "tension" a crank or cam seal?

Besides, IMHO, if you have a "worn part" on your crank, I think maybe you should find another piece. I've never had to deal with that. Besides, I don't like the idea of trying to shim something that was designed to be fully seated in the carrier. And I don't like the thought of those thin little home made brass shims working loose inside my engine either.


...and I don't think it has much to do with the seal design or material, but rather the installation and how well the other stuff on the block was buttoned up.

My point exactly, but in a different way. You don't have to go to extraordinary measures to keep an engine from leaking oil if you just use good gaskets and seals and follow the recommended torque specifications. But if you insist on using synthetics, you better be thinking about a bit of extra work to ensure leak-free operation.


Long term, then maybe it has to do with the material if the synthetics are actively attacking the seal material, but I don't think it's the root cause of motors "springing leaks" on synthetics

Of course it's not. As previously mentioned, it's because synthetics have a smaller molecular structure and can pass through and around gaskets and seals that weren't originally engineered to contain them. Modern engines that specify synthetic lubricants use more modern sealing materials.

It's obvious that you can adapt our engines to use synthetics if you want to go to the trouble and added expense. I just don't see the point. I'll use the money for fuel instead.

[DJ]

Just for the record, I don't normally have this much time to sit and type lately. I'm just sick and grumpy tonight and have nothing better to do before going to bed.

Apologies to all if my rantings and drivel get on your nerves.

[Will]

Hi DJ:
Sorry you're not feeling well. Hope you make a quick recovery!
I'm not saying you personally should use synthetics, simply that they offer some advantages that some people may want, not just the greater film strength, but I think it's pretty much irrefutable that the synthetics protect a stored engine better long-term (which is a big plus for classic cars that aren't run often) and shed water better (same for classics). So many people are afraid they add synthetics and their engine turns into a sprinkler, not necessarily true if the engine is put together right in the first place (I thought the Z car list data was interesting because it's indicated even less than I myself suspected) and on a new engine build it's not a whole lot of extra effort to seal things up. I think predicting Johnny's gearbox is going to leak like a collander is kind of bad judgment that we have been trained into by horror stories and the occasional syn leak. Of course, that was my kneejeck reaction too, then I realized it!

I'm going to share how to tightern and shim a seal (at least how I do it) in case anybody has the need to do so, I'm sure there are other ways and while I wholeheartedly agree with you it would be *best* to replace the worn part, when the worn part is a .4mm deep groove in a Lancia crank, then shimming the seal so it's out of the groove is pretty much the only way to go.

To tighten (tension) a seal: Turn the seal inside surface up on your workbench, use a bent needle or other pick to pick at the spring gently around the seal until you have the entire spring come free. Unscrew the ends of the spring (This is a little tricky, sometimes you have to twist the spring quite a bit and other times you can simply lift one end from the other) Trim 1/8" from the end of the spring with a pair of small, sharp diagonal cutters. Overlap the spring and gently work it back together, flexing the spring "opens up" the coils. Brush groove in seal with motor oil. Gently reinstall the spring in the seal groove (may require a #0 screwdriver to open up the groove ahead of where you are pushing the spring in).

Shimming: Using an exacto knife, cut a hole in gasket stock with an ID 10-20mm smaller than the hole in the seal carrier. Then cut outside of this line to as close as you can get to the ID of the seal carrier. You can use the oil-proof fiber type gasket stock (which I like better but some people hate) but then you should sand both sides flat with 220 sandpaper to remove any bumps/lumps/detritus left by the cutting. The experts say you need to be sure to fit the shim dry, so it doesn't create a secondary seal that traps air and blows out whatever sealant you are applying to the edge of the metal seal (which in their case is apparently red loctite, wouldn't be my intuitive choice but I guess it works )

OK that's all I know. I wasn't looking to get on your nrerves, didn't have anything better to do myself last night except type while I watched several bats who seem intent on setting up a colony in our soffits. Seemed easier to type than deal with the prospect of a bat problem.

[davidb]

While on lubricant topic what P.S. fluid is availible now
for our Z.F.'s . I put in Valvoline synthetic, YUP SYNTHETIC,
& it's leaking like crazy . I know these systems are prone
to leaks but from the factory did they have petro based
fluid ?

[DJ]

Yeah, they did have mineral-based fluids back then. Synthetics weren't in wide use at that point.

Those racks do leak though so I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's the synthetic. Maybe try going to a mineral oil first to see if it makes any difference.

I happen to have a brand new rebuild kit for one that I was planning to eBay at some point. It's an Audi spec kit but supposedly works for these ZF units. It includes new boots, too. If interested, send me a PM.

[davidb]

Mineral Oil ? What kind ? Specs ? Mineral Oil like from
Walgreens ? This synthetic stuff is SUPER thin . Mineral
oil I remember from my childhood was like warm
Vaseline or corn syrup consistency: very thick .
Thanks . . .

[DJ]

Mineral-based oil. That is, normal petroleum type stuff. Sorry. Mineral oil is a fairly common term for "regular" oils but it does tend to confuse those who also know what that stuff is in the drug stores.

You might give it a try, though and report back to us... :o

[davidb]

This thread/topic will seemingly never cease . I'll continue to
hunt for non-synthetic fluid for the Z.F. steering . Dunno if my
P.S. system had bad seals or not beforehand . What I do know
is w/that Valvoline synthetic, merely driving it around the block
after 18 months of re-furb on the car it leaked beaucoup . Almost
certain, gotta be funky/leaky seals somewhere . I tend to divide
opinion between the both of you [D.J./Will] . I'm of the inkling
even w/properly seated seals, WHEREVER, synthetic might leak
from the get-go: just too damn thin & a wholly different chemical
structure/compound . But what the hell do I know ? Back to my
customizing my Scorp radiator hoses which no one has ???

[Will]

Hehe, gunny you guys should mention it 'cause I was in the hardware store about a month or so ago and this broad comes in and wants mineral oil to recondition some old skillet or some such, and the McGoofy harware store guy tells her not to use minerl oil because it's toxic, it has acetone in it. Took me a seconfd to figure out he was thinking of mineral SPIRITS, (still no acetone in it, but paint remover nonetheless and probably not too tasty to boot) there was just too much going wrong in the conversation to interject so I kinda shook my head and moved on, hopefully she ended up going with some sunflower oil or something, allthough now with tis thread I'm wondering if maybe she ended up using Pennzoil :) I try to avoid "mineral " oil, 'cause, it's really not. And even "synthetic" is really kind of ambiguous, as a friend of mine says "Made of ALL Natural ingreedients, just like the Space Shuttle!
When does something become synthetic? It it when you add a reagent? Emlsifier? Retort it? Vulcanize it? When?

[DJ]

I try to avoid "mineral " oil, 'cause, it's really not.

I've not taken a lot of chemistry classes in my life but I'm not really sure how you figure that one, Will. Petroleum/Hydrocarbon is indeed considered a mineral in the Organic Class. If you know otherwise, you need to tell the folks at the US Minerals Management Service, which is one of the key regulators for the petroleum industry. It could save them a lot of work. ;)

Here's a link to a small amount of info in Wikipedia, which we all know is the one true and accurate source of all knowledge in the Universe. They use the term "mineral oil" there too so it must be appropriate. ::)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon#Petroleum

[DJ]

When does something become synthetic?

My guess would be when it is synthesized, no? :-*

Sorry. I'm just laying around trying to get feeling better and have nothing better to do than harass Will. If I had been able to go out in the garage and work this weekend I would have my car on the road now. I am soooo close. Maybe this week...

[DJ]

So as to not lose track of John's original post and point, I would like to try driving a car with synthetic MOTOR oil and that friction reducer he mentioned. Sounds interesting. Maybe next time I change gearbox oil I'll give it a shot. It'll probably leak in my box but I'd like to see how well it works.

[Wallace]

I stuck synthetic oil in my lathe gearbox a few months back - and I must admit, it does weep a bit at places it didn't with the old stuff . . . ;)

[John Allen]

I had switched my BMW 535is' tranmission oil to synthetic motor oil a while back (was a factory spec in a later year than mine). While it made the shifting better and *maybe* the mileage a little improved, the 'rattle' noise at idle was horrible. The oil is so much thinner that the gears don't get 'cushioned' by the heavier weight oil. I switched to MTL and all was good...

The reason I mention this here is that the Beta transaxles tend to be 'loose' and rattle a lot in neutral...

[Will]

Ha ha, DJ: you can harass me all you want-I'm good for it!
I dislike the phrase "mineral" oil because the word mineral referrs to things that are neither animal nor vegetable, those "produced by an inorganic process of nature".

However, the term belies the origin of the material, in that all of these petroleum products originate from biological matter, it may be an inorganic process involving time, pressure, and heat- but without the original organic process of living creatures reproducing as hydrocarbon factories, there is no "mineral" oil. So it's kind of an oxymoron, at least the way I view it. "Mineral" oil implies that you could just go mine the stuff anywhere, go drill for it on the moon, whatever. It's all originally organic, that's my point. I don't have any issure with "crude" oil. Well, not today anyway :)

I'm interested in Wallace's post- Wallace, where is it leaking from, the spindle bearings? Those seals should be fairly easy to swap out on most machines , with a trip to the local transmission supply- aren't they? I know, sometimes you just let them leak since you are cleaning the darn machine all the time anyway. I've got a carriage handle leak that's ongoing because to remove the handle requires some sort of special spanner. I haven't got the energy to make one as of yet. In the interim I've poured the carriage full of way oil, which seems to have slowed the leak a little but not completely. every time I go to use the machine I grab around the carriage handle and my fingers hit the bottom of the dial and it's covered with icky way oil. I just tell myself it beats cleaning up steel swarf though!

[Wallace]

Well - this is the strange thing -the seals are still good - it's actually coming from the gear change leavers on the top of the headstock ! (no oil seals on these - just plain shafts going into the gear box).

Probably because it's thinner - and also (maybe ?) becasue synthetic has a greater "capilary" action ??

[Pope1]

I made the switch to Redline MTL a few years ago. Yes, it ran smoother and gearchanges were better but soon after the switch oil started leaking out of a seal on one side of the gearbox. Changed the seal for a non-Lancia one of the same size. Leaked again. Changed that for a proper Lancia one. Leaked again. Since then I've just left it. It weeps a bit rather than a proper leak and it's on one side only.

[John Allen]

IIRC the LH and RH output oil seals are different part numbers. The seals have a directional spiral 'wiper' in them that helps 'wind in' the oil as the shaft turns. Maybe you put the seal from the other side in and it is pulling the oil out?

[Pope1]

Yes they are definitely different part numbers. It's possible that I could have fitted it incorrectly (can't remember now as it was so long ago) but generally I make a note of how an old part has been fitted and fit the new one the same way. Of course if the original one had been fitted incorrectly in the first place...:eek: