Flavia Sport chassis mystery

[1,6 HF]

(apologies for cross-posting -- this also appears on Viva-Lancia)

I have a mystery Flavia chassis number. This morning I saw what may be the only Flavia Sport in the US, an RHD example that was imported from South Africa not long ago. The chassis number is 815.333.001532 [correct, no typos]; it has 1.8 badging, and it has a 1800 with twin Webers, all of which seems original to the car. It is currently having some minor bodywork issues attended to, and it has been resprayed, but it is an unrestored example and largely original inside and out. It’s possible that the chassis plate was misstamped, as unlikely as this sounds. Otherwise, this chassis type does not seem to be documented anywhere.

I have quite a few Lancia reference books, but none of them seems to acknowledge the existence of chassis code 815.333. Weerninck’s La Lancia shows 815.333 as the LHD version of the 1800 convertible (815.335), but this is simply a typo—it can’t be right, which is confirmed by Weerninck’s Fulvia and Flavia, which has the LHD convertible correctly as 815.334.

Logically, 815.333 should be the RHD version of 815.332, but this also can’t be right, as 815.332 is a 1500 Sport, which Weerninck says was issued in LHD only, and the car in front of me was clearly a 1.8 with twin carbs.

Weerninck does indicate that some South African Flavias have different chassis codes. For example, the 1800 Berlina is 815.300 [LHD] or 815.301 [RHD], but 815.305 as RHD for South Africa. I don’t know for certain that this car was originally delivered to South African, but it was exported from there to the US, and the current owner believes that it was original to SA.

Accordingly, the only conclusion I can come to is that 815.333 is the RHD South African designation for the twin-carb 1800 Flavia Sport that is known as 815.532/533 [LHD/RHD] elsewhere.

Does this make any sense? Does anyone know the real answer? There may be something obvious I’m missing here. I confess that I’m much more familiar with Fulvias than Flavias; until today, I had never see the Zagato Flavia variant in person. I will gladly acknowledge any help or advice.

[Will]

Hi Ed;
I don't know if this is the answer to your question, but it might be a possibility:

With some cars, at least the Later Betas, the cars were shipped to Africa as knock-down chassis, meaning drivetrain components etc were separate and the cars were assembled post-delivery. This may have allowed for the selection of different engines in the ordering process that may not be reflected in the chassis designation. Assuming, of course, that the engine is factory stock.

I'm not saying this occured in this case, just one possibility I can think of that might explain a mismatch like that, if it were true..

[1,6 HF]

Hey, Will, thanks for your thoughts.

According to 'the sources', 252 Flavias were sent kd for South African assembly, and you'll note that my message makes reference to South African-only chassis types (such as 815.305). I think the point of shipping kd for assembly there would be so that those cars could be officially "made in South Africa", to avoid some tax issues or to comply with some 'local content' requirements. It's quite possible that these had some minor spec variants (to add an oil cooler, or some similar reason).

But this is a Flavia Sport. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but my understanding is that all of the Zagato Flavia variant, the Flavia Sport, was actually assembled by Zagato in Milan, in which case it wouldn't have been shipped to South Africa kd. Also, the chassis plate is clearly marked "Made in Italy".

I also considered the possibility that the engine isn't original to the chassis. But it has the twin-carb set-up which was unique to the Flavia Sport, whch means that the 'donor' car would have to have been a Flavia Sport 1.8. Seems unlikely; in any case this in itself doesn't explain what the 815.333 chassis type represents.

There is only one more 'easy' possibility, for which I need to have the shop confirm that the carbs are Webers rather than Solexes (I didn't pull the air cleaners when I looked at the car). I won't be able to have this confirmed until Monday.

I've sent a message to the Flavia model advisor for the Lancia Club South Africa; if I'm lucky, this is something that'll be obvious to anyone in SA.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts. I have to stop now--my head is beginning to hurt again...

[KeppelmanJ]

Ed, I don't know how to untangle your VIN/code mystery, but there are two other Sports listed in the ALC roster. De Feo's and Arutunoff's. Toly raced his a couple years ago at the historics. I bet you could get one of them to talk to you about it.

-John

[rossocorsa]

all 1500 special bodied flavia were twin carb they changed to single carb with the 1800 and just retained twin on the 1800 sport

[1,6 HF]

John, thanks for the tip about the other US Flavia Sports; I checked the ALC roster--not well enough, obviously. Both cars are oddly/incorrectly listed as Flavia coupes with Zagato bodywork, instead of Flavia Sports, but I should have noticed that. I'll try them both to see what chasiss numbers they've got and to see what they may know, and I'll try Martin Cliffe, who has one in the UK.

rossocorsa, thanks for that. It's occurred to me that I need to have the shop confirm whether the twin carbs are Solex (which the 1500s had) or Weber (which the 1800s used). The 1.8 badging seems original, which is to say it's broken and held on with a screw (or some such bodge), so my money's on the Webers.

But so far none of this really addresses the questions as to what the 815.333 chassis means, and why it doesn't appear in any Lancia source. Could it actually be as simple as a stamping error?

[rossocorsa]

not all 1800 used webers most had solex they changed to webers on later cars

[1,6 HF]

The sources I have put the twin-carb 1500 spec as 2 @ Solex C35, and the twin-carb 1800 spec as 2@ Weber 40 DCN; no one mentions 1800s with twin Solex. If some of the 1800s did have twin Solex, did they use the same C35s as the 1500s? (seems a bit light for 1800).

[rossocorsa]

I'll check

[rossocorsa]

solex 6.900.178 typo c.35 11-2 and 11-2s parts book is not clear on which cars had which make of carb on the weber page it states 'optional' for the complete carb as usual it is all a bit confusing it may well be that most were fitted with webber carbs no time to check other information today as it's after midnight will try to look tomorrow if time

Alan

[1,6 HF]

Alan, thanks. I really appreciate your help. I've got a parts catalogue for the Fulvia, but not for the Flavia.

[b-y]

I have a Flavia Parts Catalogue with updates thru 1/68. It lists 4 versions of the Sport:

815.132 1500cc LHD
815.532 1800cc LHD
815.533 1800cc RHD
815.432 1800cc LHD (fuel injection)

There are (or at least were) other Flavia Sports in the US in addition to those listed above.

Also, there is no 815.333 (or .332 for that matter) listed. But the 1800 cc (w/o) injection column is interesting:
300/301 sedan LHD/RHD
330/331 coupe
532/533 sport
334/335 convertible

So, here are three of several possible explanations for the 333:
(a) The parts manual is wrong.
(b) The plate has an error.
(c) Someone forged a plate and didn't understand that the sports follow a slightly different numbering pattern.

[1,6 HF]

Thanks, b-y.

(a) I wouldn't be at all surprised if the parts catalogue is incomplete, particularly if '333' was a South Africa-only designation. Does your parts catalogue acknowledge any of the SA chassis types, like 815.305?
(b) this is a real possibility; someone changed from the '5' punch to the '3'punch one digit early, and it should have read '533'
(c) forgery seems unlikely, especially if you look at the photo of the plate. I mean, why bother? It's clearly a real Sport. And a replacement plate--even a misstamped one--would look much better than this one.

The 'wrong punch' may be the most likely explanation; I'm just trying to exhaust all other possibilities. Besides, it seems too obvious and too unLancia-like. Perhaps I simply want there to be some really arcane--but more interesting--explanation. But there seems to be so much confusion about the various chassis designations that I'm not yet willing to give up on there being a 'real' explanation for this.

If nothing else, I'm getting a better handle on how many Flavia Sports there may be in the US.

[rossocorsa]

as far as i know all flavias also have the chassis number stamped on the gutter near the windscreen often difficult to read if the car has been repainted did you check to see what that says if visible?

[1,6 HF]

Alan, thanks; of course it's painted over, but it's a great thought. I'll see if the owner will let the bodyshop thin out the paint enough that we can read it.

(At last June's LA Concours, they took points off my Fanalone because that little patch is just in primer--no paint--so that the stamp can be read. But then, even a really nice drive like mine is never going to win an event like that anyway.)

[ncundy]

How about a bit of plasticine underneath and a mirror to read it when you have the reversed indented number ?

[1,6 HF]

Hey, Neil; great minds think alike. I've suggested this to the body shop. Unfortunately they tell me that stamp isn't nearly clear enough from the underside to make anything out--let alone distinguish a '3' from a '5'.