Brief Intro and Beta Windscreen Removal??!!

[66GT]

Greetings all fellow (fella) Lancisti!

Back in April there were a few comments posted about a black '81 Beta Coupe listed on ebay. Well managing to post a bid with about 5 seconds to go that just happened to be $1.00 above the reserve I found myself making plane reservations to fly to Newark NJ where I would embark on another Lancia Journey!

Arriving in Newark at about midnight I was picked up by the seller and about an hour later I was embarking on an all night drive back across I-80 to Columbus OH. Luckily there were no middle of the night surprises and I made it into Columbus about 10 am the next morning. There were comments about the cars color...it was an original Black with cream interior and all-in-all a pretty decent find at $3401.00. A bit of my history with Lancia's...my first was in '68 when I was a senior in HS and I bought a '59 Aurelia B24 roadster followed shortly by a '55 and a '56 Aurelia Spyder and alas a one-off Vignale bodied Aurelia 2000 Cabriolet built for the '51 Paris Auto Show Vignale design stand. Now if I wasn't so young, poor and stupid when I owned those cars I would have quite a collection today...but don't ask where they are today!!

My dad was quite involved with Lancia's back in the '60's through early '90's and we used to host the east coast ALC summer gatherings at our home a bit north of NYC. Once you have been lucky enough to own a Lancia you will be destined through life to own another at some point in time. A year and a half ago I found a '66 Flaminia 3C GT (former Tom Sheehan car) for sale in Hemming's and having driven my dad's and always thinking it was a great lucking car as well as a marvel of custom aluminum body design (Superleggera by Touring) I couldn't resist and grabbed it to start rebuilding my collection. Now speaking of value's and everyone should take note...my Aurelia Spyders..well I think I paid $250.00 for one and $400.00 for the other and the custom Vignale bodied car...$475.00. This past Saturday evening at the Historic Car Auction in Monterey...a '56 Aurelia Spyder sold for a coooollll $500.000.00....yup...that's a half a million buckeroos!! Point being as numbers of any classic or potentially classic auto diminish in the market place the value of the remaining will rise and there is also the responsibility of those in the market to not be afraid to raise the value as time goes on...Beta's, though not Aurelia's nor even direct derivatives of "original Lancia's" are still unique cars holding the potential, if well maintained, to be sound investments and should gain considerably in value as the years march forward and the availability of cars diminishes. Well...enough rambling but I do have a question and welcome suggestions from those who may have some prior experience.

Here's the issue. The '81 Beta has some classic rust issues just below the windscreen and the glass has to be removed to properly fix the problem areas. Being that the glass is bonded into the frame it can be a real challenge to remove with the glass staying in 1 piece!! Anyone have any experience removing the windshield successfully??...Lucking forward to your replies and hope to meet many of you at car events in the years to come

[Jim Keller]

You need to work around the windsheild or have a replacement ready. I have never known anyone to get one out in one piece. I have even taken them to auto glass shops and had professionals in the buiss try but they fail as well. The biggest problem is the wire re-inforcement within the glue that holds the windshield in and the age of the glass, it is brittle and cracks very very easily.

[1,6 HF]

With the caveat that I have never had the need to try this myself, and that I have not had a Beta for some years, IIRC, the wire in the adhesive is not for reinforcement--it's a thermal wire.

There is supposed to be (again, IIRC) a pair of flat contacts nearly hidden in a lower corner of the windshield for hooking up to a power source (of what kind I don't know) in order to heat the wire to soften the adhesive to make removal in one piece possible.

I'm guessing that this probably worked much better when the car (and the adhesive and the wire) was much younger, but I believe that this was the factory method of windshield removal.

[KeppelmanJ]

I am going to try this removal myself as I have the same rust issue along the cowling/windshield edge on the driver's side. My windshield was removed from the car when new to repaint the top so it can be done tho, of course, the bedding material may have been softer then. Beta Haynes manual gives instructions some of which seem useful. I also had some correspondence on this forum some years ago with a fellow who had done it on this and I'm goint to paste in his advice to me. His name is Val Danilov. Don't know if he is still posting here or not.

"If you need to remove the windshield, carefully pry off the SS trim with a large flat screwdriver. Start in one corner, and slowly work it all the way around. Don't pull too hard, as you may bend it, and you won't be able to reuse it.

Once the trim is off, get a long bladed utility knife, and cut the seal from the outside (perpendicular to the glass), and from the inside (parallel to the glass). Keep cutting, until the w/s is free. Don't push on the glass too hard, as it will easily break. Just keep cutting instead.

To replace the glass use urethane w's sealer (NAPA), and bond the glass first, then bond the SS trim. Make sure you have worked out how to press the trim to the body first, before applying the sealer."

[b-y]

I am assuming the OP is Mike's son. If so--HI!

I had the first HPE in the US (a 75 Italiian model with the Coupe HO motor) and went through the windshield leak and repair mess, welding in new metal in the rusty areas. Basically, John's procedure is spot on--just work very slowly. Done right, getting and keeping everything clean, the new seal can be better than the original. When the HPE died, the repair was still water tight.

--Yale

[rossocorsa]

the factory tool for this was a pair of handles and something like piano wire the method was to push the wire through in one position, connect the handles and then with one person inside and one outside 'saw' the glass out. As far as i know the heated wire was only to bond the glass in place not to take it out

[1,6 HF]

Alternatively, that factory ‘garrotte’ can be used on the idiot who put a wire there in the first place.

Not that it matters much, but can the wire really be for installation? The sealant would already be in liquid form and you typically don’t need heat to cure rubber or elastomeric sealants. My guess is that it was intended to be used to soften the sealant for removal but when it didn’t actually work, the factory issued the cheese cutter.

[rossocorsa]

early 70s technology not a modern adhesive presumably they used a mastic that wasn't too flexible/sticky at room temp

[66GT]

Many thanks to all for your thoughtful insight. It'll be a few months before the car gets put up for the winter....during which a lot of mechanical updating...basically a complete engine rebuild with greatly enhanced performance to be the outcome, lowering and stiffening of the suspension and body work/re-paint will be done making the car presentable for several outings next summer. I'll certainly keep some updates coming, both on the Beta and the Flaminia 3C GT, which should also be ready for touring about next summer.

Ciao for now!!

[Will]

I'm with Ed Levin on this one! Hi Five, Ed!

[1,6 HF]

Thanx, Will.

In all that advice, I think the Val Danilov Knife Method sounds like the least likely to break the glass. As for that wire, my memory could be off about it being a heat wire, but I don't think so. It must have seemed like a good idea at the time.

And, hey 66GT, in all this I forgot to congratulate you on the acquisition. I remember that black Beta coupe from the eBay listing; it looked very nice. Good luck with it.

At least you guys don't have to cope with a giant exposed rubber gasket like mine...

[Jim Keller]

It is my thougts the :-\ is maybe the stuff was on a HUGE roll at the factory and the only thing the wire serves is to keep it in one piece while the workers gun heats and lays it around the shield, then cuts the wire to length on each car, that could explain why just about EVERY Beta leaks! LOL In all my years of dealing with the Betas in different ways and reading I have never until this thread heard of the wire being a heating sorce, ??? these are glued in just like GM's

The piano wire with a guy inside and one out works best on GM's, (same install system as Beats), again, I haven't heard of anyone getting one out sucessfully in the last 10 years I have been into the Betas though. Cutting is an option, get a case of beer, it'll take ya a while! :D

[Will]

Somewhere, there is a reference to heating the wire, not sure if it is in one of the service letters but I have seen it. (Maybe in X-1/9?) The wire is supposed to get connected to 12VDC (presumably a battery charger)and heat up, this explains the extra length "flying leads" at the bottom. Not sure how much that high resistance wire could heat up the original Solbit, probably just enough to get the cutting wire through. That shit is hard as a rock at room temp!

I set my replacement in black Silicone because the predominant theory of why Scorpion windshields crack is stress on the glass caused by the body trying to torsionally rack the windshield opening with body twist. I figured the Silicone had at least twice the give of the Solbit and thus would save the day. Since I managed to crack the glass around the mirror mount with the windshield entirely out of the car, I now think that the thin inner glass lamination on a nearly flat windshield is probably more of a factor, but I digress....


Anyway, I got TONS of "Oh, no, don't do that!!!" and predictions that when I came to a stop suddenly the windshield would fly out unless I used the "correct" urethane for mounting. I thought this was an interesting take on things given how well silicone sticks to glass aquariums, shower doors, mirror, etc.(at least non-scorpion-windshield glass, I realize when a part goes on one of these cars it ends up in an alternate universe).

Anyway, I got a chuckle later to note that the Shop Manual says to set the windshield in "Silicon". Now, I'm sure they mean "Silicone", rather than polyurethane adhesive (or sand). Of course, I have seen glass globbed in with silicone that you could lift out with one hand as well, I'm sure the difference is that these people didn't clean their fingerprints and schmutz off the glass properly. Silicone should stick to glass pretty darn good. Properly cleaned and/or primed galss, that is.

[1,6 HF]

Will, thanks for that; I didn't think my memory had failed that badly about the heat wire.

You're entirely right about silicone being generally OK for setting the windshield. Although I'm mostly familiar with architectural applications, structural glazing (glass held only by sealant) has been used for years. But you're also right that preparation is critical. And you do need to be careful in selecting exactly which sealant to use. Not 'silicon', in any case.

Undoubtedly this will fall into the 'more than you really want to know' category, but over time some sealants can attack the plastic interlayer of laminated glass. The major interlayer manufacturer for both architectural and automotive apps is Saflex, and they have tested a number of sealants for compatibility; their chart can be found here: http://www.saflex.com/pdf/en/archi/Summary_Table_of_Sealant_Compatibility_Results.pdf
The chart shows that results can vary widely, even within any manufacturer's sealant line. You'll also notice that the couple of polyurethanes on the chart have much less effect than the silicones. That said, any of the silicones that affect less than 20% of the edge should be fine. As I said, more than you really wanted to know...