Beta Underheating?

[KeppelmanJ]

This is an '81 coupe with 1.8 head, euro cam timing. Since I made the head swap, this engine has been running cold - needle about 1/8 inch above the cold line on the left of the gauge. The cooling fan quit running recently and then the needle ran higher, but now that it's fixed 1/8 inch off the cold needle is its normal. I guess I suspect the thermostat. Counterintuitive, but do I remember right that failure of the relief on that thermostat can make that engine too cold?

[SubGothius]

Yes, our T-stats do tend to fail in the stuck-open position -- or in my case with the bizarre '79-only 'stat, it developed a small hole (or always had a bubble void) in the interior-wall casting -- causing at least a leak, or even full flow, of coolant thru the radiator at all times. IIRC, the T-junction type of 'stats (every year except the '79s) may also be installed incorrectly, causing the same problem, which is easily enough corrected by reorienting the T-stat in/outlets to the correct hoses.

Aside from taking forever to warm up at all and otherwise generally cool running, you also may have noticed significantly poor(er) fuel mileage as well, caused by engine operation at suboptimal temperatures (theoretically for highest efficiency, you want the engine to run as hot as possible, just short of overheating enough to warp the head!).

[Will]

Hi John;
Also be aware that if replacing the Thermostat, there are two housing types that look ALMOST identical on the outside but the hoses are routed differently, DJ and I had a debate over the way a stat should be oriented, he had one type and I had several of the others. Best way IMO is to blow through the stat so you know which way the stat should be connected, boiling the stat should indicate whether it's operating and of course have a bit of hose attached to the stat to act as a handle and so you can blow through it without putting your lips on a boiling stat. I only mention this because I'm the type of dope who would be ready to pull the thing out of the water, and then have to go looking for a bit of rad hose.

If you are used to Scorpions, the FIAT/Beta stat connects differently as far as the "bell", The fact that a Scorpion is also a Beta means they can get cross-referenced the wrong way in either direction so you need to know what you actually get. I'm sure you know the latter already but some of the newer guys may not have got a good screwing on that count yet :)

[KeppelmanJ]

Tye, Will, thanks for your thoughts. I've looked at the Beta Shop manual and Haynes and Haynes is best at reminding me what the two 'stats look like. I think mine is in right with the small hose coming in the top from the head, the large hose going down to the radiator outlet and the side headed for the water pump, as per the photo in Haynes. The cutout drawing in Haynes appears to be of a different model, perhaps like the one in the cooling shystem layout drawing a page before. Mine is still in the car and I have a replacement on order. So far so good. But I am confused, Will, about your cautionary blowing instructions. Assuming with your advice I can restrain from putting the whole thing in my mouth boiling hot, shouldn't I expect to be able to blow in two holes (the top, hot breath) (and bottom, cold breath) while my mingled breaths comes out the side, headed for the virtual water pump? Stick a finger in one inlet While I blow in the other?

[1,6 HF]

"But I am confused, Will, about your cautionary blowing instructions. Assuming with your advice I can restrain from putting the whole thing in my mouth boiling hot, shouldn't I expect to be able to blow in two holes (the top, hot breath) (and bottom, cold breath) while my mingled breaths comes out the side, headed for the virtual water pump? Stick a finger in one inlet While I blow in the other?"

that must be why the Italian for thermostat is 'ocarina'...

[Will]

Is it really...WOW!
I had to google ocarina but they look just like the FIAT external stats!

http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/renaissance/Town/Music/Ocarina.html

My point to John is that you can't go by pictures, etc. That will be right *most* of the time, until the day it's not and you end up with a stat in the wrong orientation- you have to blow thru the stat to be sure, takes about two seconds. And you can't visually determine if the thing is stuck or not (at least I can't) so again, blowing through the stat is the quick test.

But you don't necessarily have to wear the flambouyantly gay renaissance hat the guy in the picture is wearing....of course if you happen to have one handy.....:)

[Will]

No, you are f*cking with me, aren't you- Italian for thermostat ain't ocarina! And why can't I append this to the last post woithout getting an error message "unable to verify referring URL"?

[KeppelmanJ]

Can't wait to whet my whistle and play you all a tune (once I figure which end is which). Look for me on U-Tube. Don't have the hat, but I'll toot some Puccini.

[1,6 HF]

Yeah, sorry, Will.

John K was having some fun with the mechanics of the 'boiling water testing procedure', so I just couldn't resist. It sounds too obvious to be true, but the Italian for thermostat is actually 'termostato', not ocarina...

If it's any consolation (probably isn't), I got the same error message when I tried to use the 'quote' button.

[SubGothius]

Whenever I get that "Invalid Referrer" error, I've found I need to go back to the thread page and remove (...or is it add? Whichever applies...) the "www." before "lancisti.net" in the Address bar, then reload the thread page with that edited URL before proceeding with the Quote or Reply button. Lame, but it'll go away when DJ migrates the forum to vBulletin.

P.S. Gotta love the air of panic/astonishment in the generic error message here:

An error has occurred! :o

[KeppelmanJ]

Tye, there were a lot of bugs to work out after my switch to a 1.8 head. I've been fixing one after another and in denial aboutl the gas mileage, didn't want to think about it and haven't dared to calculate it. But you are right for sure, mileage has been lousy and I even suspected the cold running without being as thoughtful about it as you. I should have a new cooling fan switch and t'stat in hand late this week and will post results once running temps are up and I've burned some gas.