LB History In The USA Wanted

[Jim Fierst]

It seems to me that the LB series cars excluding the Scorpion have generally fallen from or been out favor here in the US for some time. I was wondering if anything had been written as to why? Perhaps some one has done an article some where in the past. The Fiat pullout in 1983 didn't help but the Fiat line has lived on. Ia m not looking for a history of the models but more a marketing type document.
Anyone been a Lancisti long enough to recap it.

[John Allen]

No article, but I can tell you the two things that I know of off the top of my head......

RUST (mostly around the windshield)
WIRING issues

The Lancia Beta was not constructed with as many FIAT parts and still held onto a lot of the older Lancia construction principles. The Scorpion (MonteCarlo) was basically a FIAT (no flames!).

Parts sourcing for the Beta seems to be more difficult here in the US and the cars are 'exotic' looking so many (most?) mechanics won't work on them. Troubleshooting the electrical system can quickly cost more than the value of the car...

I'm sure others will chime in here, but this is my experience with them.

It's too bad. These cars are really nice when properly maintained..

[davidb]

As we approach [or pass] the 30 yr. mark some "common"
Beta parts are getting scarce . Someone's gonna have
to get some Fiat micro fiche(s) to transfer part numbers .
I recently called Vicks for a dizzy cap for my '82 Beta &
they said NLA thru their Italian supplier . I ended up
getting a couple FACET's from I.A.P. . Don't know if this
is an isolated incident but it put a scare in me .

[DJ]

The Scorpion (MonteCarlo) was basically a FIAT (no flames!).

OK. How about I just ban you for blasphemy, then? ;)

[1,6 HF]

long post warning

I don't of any article that's been written about this, but I go back far enough to add some thoughts. First, some context:

At the start of the '70s (which is the last decade that matters for Lancia in the US) , imports were called 'foreign cars', and most of these were odd European ones. Japanese cars were scarce in the US before 1970; the Brits dominated the sports car market; Fiats weren't common; Alfa had little presence until Dustin Hoffman drove a 1750 boattail spider in The Graduate. The Germans weren't doing much better--Mercedes were around and Porsche had some presence with the 911, but BMW was nothing before they introduced the 1600/2002, and Audi was nonexistent. Some of the exotics actually had a higher profile; people had heard of Ferrari and Maserati, even if they'd never seen one.

Lancia, like most 'foreign cars' weren't handled by stand-alone dealers; usually they were grouped together (a dealer might handle several import brands) or piggy-backed with an American brand (I have very bad memories of one particular Dodge-Fiat dealer--no kidding). Lancia was rarely the bread-and-butter brand for a dealer. In most of the US, you couldn't have found a Lancia if you wanted one, without travleing a long distance to a dealer (with all that implies in in terms of service or warranty repairs).

If you think I'm overstating it, check this link: http://www.fulviahf.it/rete%20assistenza.htm . The official factory service network book from 1971 only lists about 40 authorized service points in the entire US. Fully half of these were in a small band running from western Connecticut to eastern Pennsylvania. There were, of course, other dealers where you could buy a Lancia, and any number of independent service places, but you get some sense of how thing were pre-Beta.

Lancia had never been a major presence in the US, and the Fiat spent comparatively little money on brand development or advertising. By the mid-'70s, Porsche and BMW were racing in the major international series, which really raised their profile. Datsun introduced the 240Z, which instantly put them on the map (and nearly as instantly grabbed market share from the Brits). Honda launched an advertising campaign as good as VW's had been a decade earlier (Buckminster Fuller endorsed the Civic). For all intents and pruposes, Fiat and Lancia didn't race in the '70s; they rallied, but almost no one in the US knew or cared.

In the mid-70s, the Beta actually changed things for the better, which is to say that Fiat decided to spend a little money to promote its new acquisition's new model. The post-Fiat Lancias were promoted in a way the pre-Beta models never were, and Betas sold pretty well for a few years.

But after a comparatively short time, Fiat simply couldn't sustain the effort--either for Lancia or themselves. The Beta sedan dropped out about the same time as the Scorpion (and, yes, at the time, everyone knew that the Scorpion was oringinally developed as the Fiat X1/20). 1981 was the last year for the Beta coupe; only the Zagato was sold in 1982. It all ended with a whimper rather than a bang; most people never realized that they pulled out, because most people never knew they existed in the first place.

In the end, Lancia really lost the perception war; they were associated with Fiat at a time when that didn't mean quality. Lancias didn't rust any worse than most of the imports. They were reasonably reliable (my '75 Beta coupe was as reliable as my '87 Honda CRX--not kidding about that either--even running in upstate NY, parked on the street).

But they never managed to establish a real presence in the US; the most exciting car, the Strato's simply didn't exist--no chance it could meet either safety or emisison standards, but it wasn't even used for promotional purposes here. In some sense, Lancia's greatest failing was that it had no real identity--it wasn't 'race-bred' like Porsche; it wasn't a luxury brand like Mercedes; it wasn't cheap reliable transportation like the Japanese brands; it wasn't solid safety like Volvo; it wasn't as well-known as Alfa. All of which meant that Lancia just slipped back relative to those other marques.

Once a marque is orphaned, like Lancia, Fiat or Alfa, visibility (being "in favor")becomes a question of critical mass--how many cars are out there? how large a support network can be developed by the private owners? To a great degree, it comes down to numbers and organization. There are a lot more Alfas and Fiats, which means a larger enthusiast network, and a larger market for aftermarket or remanufactured parts. Alfa has much better parts availability in no small part because the Alfa Romeo Owners Club has a large and active membership.

Now, some diatribe: Here's a question for those Beta owners who follow this forum: are you members of the American Lancia Club? It's a trick question: in 1984 there were 425 Betas & 104 Scorpions in the ALC--now there are 52 & 56. A lot of those 400 'missing' cars have fallen off the road in the intervening 23 years, but that's not the whole answer. Absent a factory newtork behind us, no one is going to raise the profile of our marque if we don't do it ourselves.

[Jim Fierst]

Excellent historical perspective. So many times it comes down to inadaquate marketing and it looks like that contributed to Lancia's fall from favor as much as anything.

[Will]

Good post. I'm not sure what Jim meant by "fall from favor", since you haven't been able to buy one since '82, I'm guessing he's talking about the low resale? Or dwindling numbers? Jim?

(IMO) The resale is due to the "oddness" factor, age, relatively poor condition of most specimens, underpowered by today's standards, etc. Throw in concern for emissions and things like the pre-19-digit-VIN issue and you've got a less than ideal situation there. To be fair, you would'nt get a whole lot more for a BMW 2002 in similar condition, and you'd often get less for a Datsun B210, Corolla, etc from that era than a Zagato, so I don't think it's Lancia specific- more like most people other than US have better things to do than crawl under cars that behave poorly.


(IMO) The dwindling numbers of the Coupe/Zagato are due to some problems with the cars that probably would have been straightened out if the model had been allowed to continue for a decade. Mechanically, the coolant fan/switch/relay on the Coupe/Zagato is one of the worst ever made. How many have you seen with a "manual" switch because the stock setup failed and cooked the snot out of the engine? And when the owner got the quote for DEVALVING the head so it could be flattened (what was Lampredi thinking?) and putting it back together with the "foreign" parts, yeah, well- hello backyard.

Then the seams rot out of all the seats since the factory apparently chose to use cat guts rather than dacron to sew the upholstery together, and then insert your choice of sunroof rotting the car away (coupe) or back window leaking and turning rear of cabin into a rust-and-mold garden (zagato), then the car gets attritted as "parts" or fed into Mr. Monster Crusher.

Parts: At least they built and sold enough 124's that if you have a FIAT, your average mechanic will have at least heard of one, even if he thinks it's an Alfa ;)
Say "Lancia" and you will get a blank stare, or pupils that dialate and morph into dollar signs. Either reaction means run like hell.

For anyone reading this that may not be aware, many if not most.....er, let me rephase that....most if not ALL US FIAT parts suppliers are working primarily from two sources. The first source is the existing inventories of NOS parts, these are shuffled around and consolidated from time to time and largely comprised of worthless stuff (clips, washers, springs, etc- many of the guys with inventories don't know what half the stuff goes to)
The other source is NEW parts, which were imported here almost exclusively by Linearossa. When you ordered a part from somewhere like italiancarparts.com, the order went to linearossa the same way your local NAPA orders from the TRW warehouse.
And as of about two- maybe three years now, Linearossa CEASED US OPERATIONS.

No need to panic quite yet since there are existing inventories, and of course parts cars, but one day in the future you may have to essentially import your own stuff unless the guys that sold parts get their act together and establish some sort of import mechanism.

But if you know you need, say, a water pump, it might be a good idea to order two. I don't think we've really seen the consequence of the parts shortage yet, but I think we will. Also, I'm pretty sure Bayless and IAP have suppliers other than Linearossa, but I don't know about the smaller guys (the Oberts, Vicks, and Bruces) I guess time will tell but I'm hedging my bets and picking up some extra consumables.

Jim, most of the articles I know about are in the "Lancia Gold Portfolio", I'd be glad to loan you my copy if you don't have it and want to see what was written at the time.

[Jim Fierst]

Good Post Will,
When I said they fell from favor I was thinking about current resale value. I keep looking at MGB's that are total basket cases that bring more $ than that low milage 82 Zag on Ebay that went for $2550. I guess I have had it in my mind that as the boomers start to retire and want car projects Fiat & Lancia would become more populars
Caribou Ed mentioned Linearossa's importance in the parts supply chain a few years ago also. He didn't seem to raise much interest in the fact it was gone.
I am currently feeling the pains of search in my efforts to findr a new oil pump. All the NOS seems to be gone. Otherwise parts cars are supplying the bits and pieces for now and thanks to Betaboyz for the bushings.

[SubGothius]

FWIW, Chris Obert has mentioned sourcing parts on his frequent trips to Italy (as much for pleasure as business, I'm sure!), which is how he winds up offering specials on some non-automotive Italian goods, like those gallon tins of extra virgin olive oil (pretty sure that's not for the crankcase! :D ), and which isn't surprising given his de facto niche as "king of the most obscure FIAT-Lancia parts ever" (Got an old 500? 600? Multipla? He's your guy.) One has to wonder how much his operation is "all him" or to what degree his staff (family?) is apprenticed in the ways of his business; i.e., he's not getting any younger like the rest of us, so when he inevitably drops or simply can't maintain anymore, what becomes of C. Obert & Co.? One might speculate the same of Bruce, but he seems to have a more focused inventory, and somehow I'm more inclned to think he's got help who could take up the reins if/when needs be. I could be wrong in either case, might just be my foolish notions of general East Coast v. West Coast "character"...

Still, we Italian car aficionados have had it pretty good, and still do -- just try finding a reliable, established parts vendor for any French car! ::) Last I heard, there was exactly one "go-to guy" in the US for Renault parts, and it seemed he was less a business than just an enthusiast who was motivated enough to make some contacts in Europe for special-order needs. We should count our blessings, chief among them that Italian cars inspire such enthusiasm that several parts vendors and communities like this can sustain a marque like Lancia (which only ever officially imported, what, maybe 10,000 Beta-variant cars total?) for 25 years and counting after its effective demise in this market! 8)

[1,6 HF]

Will,

I wouldn’t argue with any of your specific points regarding the engineering issues or parts availability. In that regard I don’t doubt that I was fairly lucky with my ‘75 Beta coupe and my ‘81; I more than made up for that luck with my ‘79–rust and electrics (the only saving grace was that my mechanic was located only 2 blocks away–all down hill).

But I don’t think I have to explain to anyone reading this that the choice of which classic car(s) to buy and run and restore is not fundamentally about rational decision-making based on a careful calculus of engineering quality, observed flaws, and parts availability. It’s about what you grew up with or what your father/neighbor had or what you remember from the magazines or what you think looks cool (or, sometimes, what’s so obscure that no one else will know what you’re driving). And the markets and market values for these cars are similarly non-rational. IMO, in the classic car marketplace, there is little or no ‘real’ value–there is only perceived value; the scrap value of a 1966 275 GTB is not much different from the scrap value of a 1966 Galaxie station wagon.

And, of course, perceived value is just that–it’s about perceptions, image, identity, and all those other intangible factors that create an aura of desirability. Objectifiable factors like performance and quality certainly play a role, but they don’t explain why someone will pay a huge premium for a ‘numbers matching’ ‘60s muscle car with its original build quality, including the ‘proper’ amount of factory overspray under the hood, as opposed to a ‘flawless’ clone with a new crate motor.

Alfas and BMWs and 240Zs and 124 Spiders and 280SLs of the same vintage as Betas have virtually all of the same issues: rust, dodgy electrics, interiors that fall apart (at least the Betas have the advantage of seat covers that just disintegrate at the seams–the easiest repair possible), and not much more power than the average small sedan today. If those others have better parts availability (and they mostly do), it’s generally a case of numbers–there were a lot more of them made, so a lot more spares survive and a lot more dead cars can be broken. And there’s a more viable market for reproduction parts.

But IMO, it can’t really come down to parts availability; there aren’t a whole lot of '60s Ferrari parts available either; they're impossible to find and they cost the earth, but that’s not exactly holding down the values of 250 SWBs or Lussos.

Again, I think it comes down to image and identity. I think that’s why Lancia failed in the US and I think it’s affecting the values of Betas now. Alfas are orphans, too, but if you take the proverbial man on the street–even the average car guy–and say “Alfa” and “Lancia”, he’s heard of Alfa and has a distinct image of it, but “Lancia” will usually draw a blank stare (even if you pronounce it “lanSEEya”). And even if they’ve actually heard of, it form a fuzzier mental picture. The suggestion to go back and look at contemporary Beta or Beta Zagato articles from Road & Track of Car & Driver is a good one. It’s been a long time since I’ve read those articles (which I did at the time), but I remember the reaction being ‘decent but not staggering performance, lots of style, but some quirks and no compelling reason to choose it over something else for the money’. In other words, no reason to go out of your way and no reason to spend extra for it. Image and identity is why people go out of their way, and it’s why they spend extra. And IMO it's the main reason that the market for Betas is so small today.

At least that’s my take on it. YMMV.

[Will]

Mmm...sounds like we are all basically on the same page, but weigh the factors a little differently.

FWIW, Bruce was not really a "FIAT guy" before buying that building and inventory, which in my mind is really what differentiates Bruce and Chris. Chris knows where practically every part goes and what it's to. I haven't done a lot of business with either, got put off by Chris' price for a plastic Scorpion nose corner, and I'm fortunate not to have a big need for stock parts anymore since when a stock part breaks I usually substitute something better from another application. My feeling is, the less dodgy Marelli parts the better!

Bruce has been talking about selling/retiring for a while, I suspect he'll be first out of the biz, and who knows what will happen to that inventory. Hopefully it won't end up in dumpsters like Kevin Sheehan's did. LPC had a LOT of inventory and it's a shame that Kevin was never motivated to sell it. Sometimes I called him three or four times on stuff he never shippped. Ditto with Ed- I'm almost certain he actually BENEFITS from the LR pullout since he's sitting on a ton of inventory and the demise of LR is going to hurt his competitors and gain him additional market share. But in Ed's case, he's so lax in customer service the best thing he could do for his company and the FIAT community is simply to go away and leave some motivated kid in there that is hungry enough to actually ship out parts. And change the name since practically any forum is littered with "avoid Caribou" posts.

I know it sounds like I just slammed all the vendors, but I'm being honest- the only vendor I can think of that seems really on the ball is IAP, and even them I could criticise for deforesting an acre of trees every year to mail me catalogs when I only order from them about once every two years.

That's a good point about the MGB, but remember the MGB and Spits are "true" convertibles and they are cute and small. Small means "I can do that" for a lot of people who are going to, or intend to restore cars. That '66 Galaxie on the other hand, will require three people to pull the engine and an extra month of wet sanding, and will not fit in the garage along with your SUV. Even given the choice of an "undesirable" car like a 914 vs a "desirable" car like a Roadrunner, many average-Joes will pick the little car. This may be another reason the Scorpion is more popular than the Beta- besides looking sportier and faster (IMO and we all know how decieving this is) it also LOOKS a lot smaller, even though we Lancisti know they are both fairly small cars.

Well, we all know what opinions are like, but that's mine. All the other points made I agree with to varying amounts.Y'all know how rare that is since I usually have a counterpoint to everything!

[davidb]

Yup I sure miss the Lancia Parts Consortium . In '84 I actually
ordered a glass, heated filament LBZ rear window thru them
from Italy [like the 911/912 Targas had] . $650 even back then !
After a 20 month wait I gave up but they did send my $$$$ back .
As for other stuff I think I.A.P. can be pricey . Shaba @ Vicks is
my current favorite place . When I call Bruce he always sounds
like he's running 6 ways from Sunday & has been a tad unreliable .
Price aside if someone has what I need I buy it . I got tired of
the broken stalk assembly in my '82 LBZ & bought a new one from
Chris : brand new, common market model [just symbols], perfect
match . It was $287 but it's an exact match . Whaddya gonna do ?

[SubGothius]

I know it sounds like I just slammed all the vendors, but I'm being honest...

You didn't mention Vick, tho' David did, and my experience with them has likewise been good. I also like them in principle as a fully-staffed business "by, for and of" enthsuasts with a "self-sustaining" business model, rather than an apparent one-man band or profiteering venture. IAP is a solid business, but seems an Alfa shop first, FIAT second, and Lancia as a token only where that inventory is leftover or overlaps with FIAT, and they are clearly in the game to make money above and beyind simply staying in business (don't think I didn't recognize that glimpse of a Ferrari 308GT4 in their company parking lot pic!). As an overall operation, Vick most resembles IAP but without all those gripeable aspects of IAP, and Csaba (sounds like "shaba" ;) ) is a regular contributor in the Mirafiori forums, and not just to sell stuff.

I've said it before and will say it again: suffice to say, I would have no problem -- indeed, would be well pleased, even relieved -- if every scrap of orphaned FIAT-Lancia parts inventory in the country wound up getting collected at Vick's.


This may be another reason the Scorpion is more popular than the Beta- besides looking sportier and faster (IMO and we all know how decieving this is) it also LOOKS a lot smaller, even though we Lancisti know they are both fairly small cars.

This is something I've noticed with the Zagato in particular. It looks bigger in pictures, or even seeing it from a distance, seeming to shrink to a surprisingly compact size as I walk up to it. IMHO, its basic design and proportions could be supersized to, say, Maserati Quattroporte III dimensions as an expansive luxo-cruiser with a vast, well-padded interior and a V-8 underhood, and it would still look just as good (the Bristol 412/Beaufighter doesn't count; Zagato messed with the proportions there). Alas, that impeccable Italian tailoring may work like a backhanded compliment in this era of online ads like eBay, where people looking for something small and easy to work on might be put off by pictures that seem to show a bigger car (which could then make the engine seem bigger, which could then be mistaken at a glance for a V-8... not that we'd want That Guy getting his mitts on one of "our" cars anyway! ::) )...

[davidb]

Sub-G is correct about Vicks : THEY REALLY CARE . Plus Shaba [sp?]
Todd or Ryan pick-up the phone right NOW ! Further they have a
toll-free # unlike C. Obert . But what's a nickel when you're
ordering pricey parts which someone has or can procure .
Sum & substance we're all gonna be screwed soon : NLA parts-
wise . My 1ST car was a '67 & 1/2 GNT series MGB-GT . Strange that
came up on the thread/topic . Back to my '82 LBZ which I detected
has a [ZF] P.W. steering rack "box" leak . We're all crazy !!!!

[Will]

I didn't mention Vick's, Shadetree, Apple, PBS, or any of the other 40 or so vendors out there b/c I was restricting my comments to vendors I have enough experience dealing with to have formed an opinion. Other than meeting Csaba briefly a few times, I haven't dealt with Vicks.

Tye, I assume you realize when you look at the Skymall mags and see International AutoSport, it is the same Paul Opelia (sp?) and you can bet your ass they sell more wax, dusters, laser detectors and overpriced parking aids than Alfa/FIAT/Lancia parts combined, so I think it's safe to say the bulk of the money really comes in from $250 hose carts and $300 sheepskin seatcovers for your BMW. What I want to know, is how long will it take them to simply get the Italian car parts manufactured in China and imported along with the other crap? A brand new source of parts for your Rancia or Arfa Lomeo!


David, AFAIK your options on your steering rack are the ZF rebuild kit that x-refs to an Audi 5000 or shelling out some coin for an "authorized" rebuild. I think Allen Lofland went the latter route and could possibly give you the details. Don't let it go 'cause the thing drips right on the exhaust mani and can cause a FIRE!

-Will

[DJ]

David, AFAIK your options on your steering rack are the ZF rebuild kit that x-refs to an Audi 5000 or shelling out some coin for an "authorized" rebuild.

FWIW, I actually have one of those rebuild kits for sale. New never opened.

[SubGothius]

Our PS rack is similar enough to a '79-83 Audi 5000 ZF PS rack that it can take the same seal-rebuild kit (I hear it's normal to have a few kit pieces leftover). Some call it a DIY job if you can be meticulously clean about it -- not "silicon wafer-fab cleanroom" clean, but y'know, getcher engine bay steam-cleaned or at least pressure-wash the firewall and wheelwell areas before removal, tape-over the orifices after you disconnect the hoses, and lay things out for dis/reassembly on a clean, debris-free cloth to keep any deadly grit/grime outta the hydraulic circuit. ;) 8)

My Zag's PO was pretty sure he found it in that junkyard due to a PS fluid-leak-on-the-manifold fire -- at least, he hadda replace a melted fusebox and rewire a bunch of circuits due to burnt-insulation shorts (speaking of meticulous, he actually used paint-markers to match the new wires to the original, dotted-bicolor wiring schema!).

BTW, already knew about Int'l AutoSport as Paul O's "other" biz, but that's a fairly recent development which actually grew from the non-parts auto stuff he'd been selling via IAP for years, and IAP's not about to scale back their markups just 'cuz the spinoff is now raking it in! ;)

Anyway yeah, we're all crazy here... crazy in love with some fantastic, beautiful cars! :D ;D

[Will]

I don't know how recent AutoSport is, I think it had to be about 10 years ago when I first noticed them and/or made the connection, and it was because I saw the aforementioned Ferrari in a wax advrtisement photo with Paul O. waxing it, and recognised the photo was the same as the IAP catalog. I don't know how much gets sold through those Skymall mags but I figure given the captive audience it has got to be a phenomenal volume, figure 30K commercial flight per day times 130 passengers per, and you have a highly targeted relatively affluent market getting force fed nearly FOUR MILLION unique advertising impressions per day. Not like a billboard where the same people drive by it every day, either. Since we are just idly BS'ing and speculating here, I would be more concerned that Mr.O may decide that the resources currently being used by the IAP division (building, personnel, inventory capital,etc.) might be better utilized to support the AutoSport division. Surely, FIATS, Lancias and Alfas keep breaking, but due to attrition there has got to be a dwindling client base for that market? They aren't making any more of them, well, I can't imagine the recent addition of 164 owners swelled the IAP customer ranks all that much?

I think another reason the cars we drive may have "fallen from favor" is simply the fact that newer cars are in many ways SO MUCH BETTER. Let's face it- nearly all of the Japanese imports accellerate better, brake better, are put together better, handle better and have better interior amenities, even though nearly all of them carry a significant weight penalty because of the crumple zones and safety bumpers. Oh, yeah, I forgot SAFER.

Most of us like our cars due to what analysts call "snob appeal", which is the desire to have something that's different from what everybody else has. Sounds like it has a negative connotation, but I'm OK with that, 'cause what everybody else has is downright boring in my book. There is no way I'd trade my car for a new BMW 3-series. Hell, I would NEVER be able to find my car in the local parking lots :)

[KeppelmanJ]

Unfortunately, I think the ALC has not always been the Beta's friend. I think that has had something to do with the attrition of cars in the club's ranks mentioned above. Not engineered by Lancia on a clean sheet, the engine has never had the pedigree of its frequently more eccentric predecessors, and the cars historically fall right on this side of the timeline of "they don't make them like they used to". Even the latest Fulvias with their Fiat pressed A-arms get some snooty reception there. As editor of Lanciana for umpteen years this minority but occasionally outspoken bias used to irritate me no end because it made no sense and no lengths of persuasion ever changed any minds. Rather than an end in itself, Beta ownership was sometimes considered a stepping stone to collecting the older cars. For those whose skin was a little thin, the club was not the supportive community it should have been and Beta ownership was tough for all the reasons mentioned above. I don't want to overestate this though. There are numerous strong, interesting ALC personalities who own Betas, or Betas as well as the older cars and generally have no truck with Beta snobbery.

John Keppelman

[1,6 HF]

I think another reason the cars we drive may have "fallen from favor" is simply the fact that newer cars are in many ways SO MUCH BETTER. Let's face it- nearly all of the Japanese imports accellerate better, brake better, are put together better, handle better and have better interior amenities, even though nearly all of them carry a significant weight penalty because of the crumple zones and safety bumpers. Oh, yeah, I forgot SAFER.

Most of us like our cars due to what analysts call "snob appeal", which is the desire to have something that's different from what everybody else has. Sounds like it has a negative connotation, but I'm OK with that, 'cause what everybody else has is downright boring in my book. There is no way I'd trade my car for a new BMW 3-series. Hell, I would NEVER be able to find my car in the local parking lots :)


I think you're absolutely right about the snob appeal of 'you have no idea what this car is' (or at least 'you haven't seen one of these lately), but I think that the 'so much better' theory is not correct at all.

Steve Ahlgrim put it well in an SCM article on the Dino 246:
"Compared to a 308, the Dino is clearly an inferior car. Mechanically, the 308's 8-cylinder engine is smoother, more reliable, and more powerful than the 6-cylinder Dino. ... There is no doubt the 308 is a better driving car. Comparing creature comforts, the 308 wins again ... The 308 has better seating, better air conditioning, better sound insulation, and is overall far more comfortable to drive. There's every reason that the 308 should be more valuable.
"Despite my logical conslusions, the market proved me wrong. Dinos have one of the most beautiful bodies ever to grace an automobile. The shape is a perfect blend of performance and style. Nearly 40 years after its introduction, a Dino still looks hot. The wonderful sounds of the diminutive 6-cylinder engine make you quckly forget it's down on cylinders and power. The interior may not be the most confortable, but it has that uniquely Italian style that makes comfort secondary. In the end, the Dino is about beauty; there's an emotional appeal to a Dino that says screw the price, I can afford on and I want one. That's what really drives prices."

And I think that's a pretty good explanation as to why the Scorpions are holding their value better than the Beta coupes and Zagatos (and why, between the latter two, the Zagatos are valued slightly higher). It's not about size; it's not about parts availability; it's about whether or not a car 'moves' you more than logic dictates it should.

Regarding Lancia's image and the ALC, John Keppleman's certainly right about the Beta attrition being connected to 'post-Fiat' snobbery. But he' also right that a lot of ALC members bridge the pre- and post-Fiat era in their collections; this afternoon I'm dropping by to see a neighbor with a handful of Flaminias, but a Beta coupe as a daily driver. At the West Coast reunion a few months back, the Scorpion with the blown 8.32 engine got plenty of admiring stares, as did the Integrale that showed up; a stock Scorp won 'Most Original'. And, of course, there's the old saying that elections are won by those that show up. If enough Beta/Scorpion owners get back in, they really can reshape things. Getting Lancisti more united isn't going to instantly cure all image problems (nor parts availability problems), but staying splintered will only make it worse. IMO.

[KeppelmanJ]

Will, I agree with you that most moderns are better in the ways that you mention, and I would add quieter and more comfortable and for those in particular I am grateful. As a daily driver I would not swap my very sophisticated German modern for the Beta. You might say that the Beta has better power steering modulation, or some such, but in general the modern is better. However, there is something wonderfully primal about driving the little italian sportscar, on an appropriate road, which is lost with germanic refinement. I keep my Beta for those times when I have an hour or two and want to clear my head. Drive for the sake of driving itself, for the entertainment of it, and at that it's quite capable and "better" than the German. A delight really, so responsive and light and well balanced. Of course it runs out of wind if the road gets too fast and you might wish it had a wonderful engine, a Jag or a Stratos six, something that thrills. But the car is better handling than lots of British sports cars that are worth pots more money. I have had my '81 coupe and 1.6HF Fulvia Sport on the same track, really flogging both at different times, and while the race prepared Fulvia is quicker, the Beta is better balanced and more fun to drive at the extremes.

[b-y]

I agree with most of the points above, but want to add a few comments. Fiat North America made several mistakes in the mid-70s--some were avoidable, some probably not. All of this has to be looked at considering their sales. I seem to remember 75 or 76 was the best year in the US for Beta sales with about 11,000. The same year Fiat sales were just over 100,000. Fiat was habitually late with getting the cars here, getting them approved by the EPA and the DOT, etc. As a result the Beta advertising campaigns were often out-of-sync with availability. Cars were advertised when no one could test drive or buy one; then there were leftovers long after the advertising stopped and other mfgrs were discounting end-of-model-year cars.

One can "blame" either the US regs or Fiat for the decision to sell 86 HP Betas with high (numerically) final drive ratios that attempted to make up for the power loss. In any case, the resulting engine was a less-than-desireable compromise. This led them to being less efficient, noisier, less economical, and more prone to wear than their European counterparts. I had an HPE with a Euro-spec high-output 1.8 engine from the limited edition coupes sold only in France and Italy at that time. The differences between it and the US version were considerable. By the time the 2nd series cars with FI came in, most of the damage was done to the reputation. Also, there was no automatic transmission until the AP unit in a few late Zagatos.

Finally, a comment about ALC members. While some were critics of the Betas, many (most) were realists. Some of us are old enough to remember the F-cars being criticisized for not having sliding pillars. In many ways my HPE was a better car than the Flavia 1.8 sedan which was better than the Aurelia. But I kept the Aurelia long after the other two died.

[Will]

Hold on now, I wasn't ADVOCATING that any of us should go out and buy a new Accord or Camry, I was just saying we need to step outside of our own myopic view and take things into perspective.

Our cars are hard to find parts for, prone to all sorts of problems modern cars aren't (plastic doesn't rust and Metripaks don't corrode and leave half your electricals acting skitchy) and modern- particularly computer aided design, makes for vast improvements.

This is really inarguable, a stock 2.4L 166HP 16valve VTEC all-alloy motor that's more efficient than an iron-block 1800 8V TC is obviously a better powerplant.

However, we as individuals prefer the old cars the way some people prefer Model A's or pre-war model trains, or old tools. We can add all kinds of descriptive and evocative and/or emotive word like "visceral" to describe our preferences. This is only relevant to US.

If you found yourself in the middle of the Sahara with no water and had to choose between a 2007 Camry and a showroom-new 1981 Beta Coupe, which would you pick to save your life?

The answer should be obvious- we are all a bunch of morons and would probably perish trying to push the Beta out of the desert. But we can't expect "normal" people to be so brash, certainly the average Joe may express a casual interest in our cars, but for most people they are not worthg the extra effort.

Yes, I know you can get run off an enthusiast list for pointing this out, but when we ask ourselves why these cars have fallen from favor, we need to consider there are a lot of other options and many of them just make more sense logically.

I find it hard to imagine that anyone could choose a Camry with a ton of rubber stick-on cowcatchers and double rear carrying handle with bling-bling dubs over the Pininfarina-designed aesthetic of the Scorpion or Zagato, but I know that many people do. Since I'm a snob, arrogant, and what was it somebody said? Oh yeah- full of myself- I just write it off to 95 percent of the rest of the populace having exquisitely poor taste. I'm OK with that- please don't pimp my ride!

[davidb]

Although 25+ yrs. ago a lingering legacy for Betas too
is the discounting that went on . I bought a new '78
Sedan [A/C, metallic only options] from a St. Louis dealer
for $6K , sticker was over $8K . Put 80K mi. on it over a
couple years, sold it for $4.5K, good for me . Lancia had
folded by then but I learned all mid-west Betas had been
sent to Cincinati . I flew there & bought a new '81 Coupe
fully optioned for $8K, stickered for something like $12K .
Sold it 32K mi. later for $10.5K . Now it's 1984 & on a lark I
call Cincinati, they have a Zagato left, sticker is $14K, bought
it for $8.5K . Totaled it [sigh] ins. co. gave me $11.3K !
W/that kind of discounting it's no wonder they're not
worth much now . Other than to us .

[rossocorsa]

don't know about the slightly compromised US versions of the Beta but the versions we got in europe still have features that are hard to beat in todays cars, the handling of a well looked after beta coupé is a joy, real fun around corners, great brakes too criticised as oversensitive when new but that was really in comparison with what was around at the time, style as well there are few cars so timeless yes the ventilation and minor controls are a bit backward and the headlights are next to hopeless fuel economy not so good but overall amazing. The overall design of the Beta was way ahead at the time it's influence on other designs is never given enough credit it's a shame that along with the Alfasud the Italian industry threw away the massive lead they had in design and let others overtake them

[1,6 HF]

OK, Jim F, you started this thread. Which means my question to you is: are you clairvoyant?

The September issue of Sports Car Market arrived today, with an 'Affordable Classic' article by Rob Sass on the Betas, including why IHO they're so cheap. The comparative value chart against the 124 Coupe and (heaven help us) the Cosworth Vega is truly depressing.

Which means my next question is: what are next week's lottery numbers?