FI Conversion question

[DJ]

I've installed a Beta FI system in my Scorpion. I'm now at the point of trying to start the new engine and it spins but won't start. I'm just now starting to troubleshoot that but have a slightly different but possibly related problem.

When I turn the key on, the fuel pump runs immediately and then keeps cycling as long as the key is on. From everything I've read so far, this tells me I have something wired incorrectly. Can anyone tell me what I should be checking for this? I suspect it's one of the relay connections that needs to be swapped.

Thanks.

[DJ]

I've determined (much to my embarrassment) that the sound I thought was the fuel pump was the wiper motor on intermittent. The arms aren't connected yet so the wipers weren’t moving.

The wiring appears to be correct. I've triple-checked all that and the pump comes on when I move the AFM flap.

The engine will now start momentarily, then dies.

I'm now going to do the tests on the double relay outlined in the FIAT troubleshooting guide. I suspect I may have a bad relay set.

Has anyone identified a good replacement for the dual relay setup?

DJ

[DJ]

The relay tests good according to the FIAT guide. Now what?

Now getting annoyed.

[DJ]

It just occurred to me that I should have posted this question here in the Beta forum.

Does this problem sound familiar to any of you FI guys?

[Jim Fierst]

The cold start device must be working somewhat to get momentarty running ,Normally it will cause the engine to run for 6 to 7 seconds when cold with out any help from the injectors. The CS device is controlled by the thermotime switch which senses temperature and limits the CS device flow/ duration. That switch could be bad,. Both work off the key in the start position ,shut off in the run position and are not integrated with the ECU. I believe what keeps it working is the good old coolant tem sensor . That should have a cold reading of 2500 ohms or more. Start with that.

[davidb]

Does the fuel gauge function ? Positive the ignition coils wires are
connected properly ? Cold start sensors rarely fail . I suspect
a bad connect w/the combi-relay . They rarely fail as well but
you've re-wired alot of this car . I've done it too . No critisism .
It was a nightmare to get mine running when I finally figured out
what I mis-wired . Keep @ it !

[Will]

It sounds to me like your injectors may not be firing- do you have a noid light?
Check ECU grounds and power supply to injectors on dual-relay side, if that doesn't cure ya report back and we'll chase the next thing.

When stuff like that happens to me, it's usually something dumb (like forgot the grounds to the cambox), etc. If your injectors were firing you'd usually have a problem like won't idle, stumbles,, etc- not dies immediately. If you disconnect the 5th injector and it no longer starts at all, then you've almost certainly got a case of no injectors firing. Ditto for if you ground the 5th injector and it lumps along as long as you're manually feeding it fuel.

Good luck, as always.

[DJ]

Does the fuel gauge function ? Positive the ignition coils wires are
connected properly ?


Now that you ask, the fuel gauge is NOT working but I fail to understand what that might have to do with the problem. I am perplexed as to why it's not working though.

Because I'm running a setup that's a bit different, the coil connections are "special". But I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is now and the coil connections do come into play. See my next response to Will's post.

[DJ]

It sounds to me like your injectors may not be firing-

I'm certain that you are absolutely correct, Will, even though I don't have a noid light to test with. I'm sure the injectors aren't firing and I am also certain as to what the problem is.

I didn't mention it before but I'm running a Crane HI-6 ignition system with a Bosch end-cam dizzy from a FIAT Strada, which uses a magnetic trigger. With this particular Crane system, as with the equivalent MSD systems, you are not supposed to connect anything to the coil except the wires from the ignition box. They provide a separate output wire for tach signal, which is where the Bosch ECU also gets it's signal. According to both Crane and MSD documentation, when using a magnetic trigger, you need a tach signal adapter to correct the signal for the tach and anything else that uses the signal like FI ECUs.

I plan to install one and see if it fixes the issue. I'm 99.99% sure it will.

[sickchilly]

Chiming in late, but it looks like you're on track. I believe your problem is ignition signal to the ECU. Three things are required for the main injectors to fire on the L-jet: Power, injector ground, and coil signal to the ECU.





It sounds to me like your injectors may not be firing-

I'm certain that you are absolutely correct, Will, even though I don't have a noid light to test with. I'm sure the injectors aren't firing and I am also certain as to what the problem is.

I didn't mention it before but I'm running a Crane HI-6 ignition system with a Bosch end-cam dizzy from a FIAT Strada, which uses a magnetic trigger. With this particular Crane system, as with the equivalent MSD systems, you are not supposed to connect anything to the coil except the wires from the ignition box. They provide a separate output wire for tach signal, which is where the Bosch ECU also gets it's signal. According to both Crane and MSD documentation, when using a magnetic trigger, you need a tach signal adapter to correct the signal for the tach and anything else that uses the signal like FI ECUs.

I plan to install one and see if it fixes the issue. I'm 99.99% sure it will.

[davidb]

The fuel pump & fuel gauge [low fuel] transmitter in the gas tank
have a common ground, i.e. fuel pump ground goes to trans-
mitter then that combined ground disappears in the wiring
harness & ultimately grounds I don't know where . Point is if
fuel gauge is dead the pump might not be grounded either .
I ran a seperate ground for my pump to get it running . My
gauge is still dead though . AHHHHHHHHHH !!!! >:(

[Jim Fierst]

Reguarding the tach adapter situation. When I added the turbo I also added an MSD boost rertard ignition controller. The engine started but ran terrible.I purchased an MSD Tach adapter and wired it in. It did not correct the situation & I removed it. Allen L mentioned a Tech at Crane and I called him and he said these ignitions were sensetative to polarity and suggested I swap the magnetic pick up leads . That solved the problem and I run both the tach and ECU right off the coil.

[Gregory Smith]

It's one of the the right taillight studs with all the black wires connected to it. In this bunch is the taillight grounds, the fuel pump ground, the fuel sender ground. Check the connections for cleanliness and tightness.

[DJ]

suggested I swap the magnetic pick up leads

I already tried that because the polarity is not clear on the Bosch dizzy. No dice.

[DJ]

It's one of the the right taillight studs with all the black wires connected to it.

I'm pretty sure it's not the case on the Scorpion but I will certainly recheck all my grounds, though.

BTW, it was your post at Mira that got me thinking about the tach/ECU signal from the coil and prompted me to go back and re-read all the documentation. I'm still certain that's it.

[DJ]

The fuel pump & fuel gauge [low fuel] transmitter in the gas tank
have a common ground, i.e. fuel pump ground goes to trans-
mitter then that combined ground disappears in the wiring
harness & ultimately grounds I don't know where . Point is if
fuel gauge is dead the pump might not be grounded either .
I ran a seperate ground for my pump to get it running . My
gauge is still dead though . AHHHHHHHHHH !!!! >:(


I understand the reasoning now. However, are you talking abou Beta wiring or Scorpion wiring?

I've already added a separate ground for the fuel pump and I know it's working OK.

[Will]

Before you start ordering stuff, I think you should test the injectors to make sure they aren't getting energized. Since you don't have a noid light, you'll have to get creative, the pulse width is so small at idle you most likely will not be able to see it on a test lamp. You might try a single strand of steel wool jumped across the injector connector to see if it burns through. If not, then my next step would be to feed the ECU off of a handheld ignition box, or if you have one maybe a signal generator at about 30hz I think is idle.

But testing the injectors at the connectors at least lets you know if the problem is fuel pressure or injector/ECU related, or something else entirely. For example, you might not have enough bypass air to let the thing idle- you really can't take stuff for granted if the car hasn't been running before, and even then we all know what happens to you as soon as you make any assumptions with these POS cars!


You may be right about the Crane but I've never used one so can't help ya there.

[sickchilly]

Before I got a real noid light kit, I used a standard 12v test light probe. It will work, but you have to turn off surrounding light sources and crank for almost 30 seconds straight in order to build up enough juice to light the lamp enough for you to notice. Once you get it going though, you will see that standard 12v lamp throb. If you have good access, you can also just pull and injector and fire it into a mason jar while someone else cranks. Usual precautions about spraying atomized fuel towards any source of heat and all that. ;)



Before you start ordering stuff, I think you should test the injectors to make sure they aren't getting energized. Since you don't have a noid light, you'll have to get creative, the pulse width is so small at idle you most likely will not be able to see it on a test lamp. You might try a single strand of steel wool jumped across the injector connector to see if it burns through. If not, then my next step would be to feed the ECU off of a handheld ignition box, or if you have one maybe a signal generator at about 30hz I think is idle.

But testing the injectors at the connectors at least lets you know if the problem is fuel pressure or injector/ECU related, or something else entirely. For example, you might not have enough bypass air to let the thing idle- you really can't take stuff for granted if the car hasn't been running before, and even then we all know what happens to you as soon as you make any assumptions with these POS cars!


You may be right about the Crane but I've never used one so can't help ya there.

[DJ]

Waaay too much work! I don't intend to make a science project out of this. Not enough time, nor patience. >:(

I have PLENTY of fuel pressure and if it was actually firing up and trying to idle I might try some of those things. But it's not. It's firing up and dying immediately and I'm certain it's only getting fuel from the cold-start injector.

I'm absolutely certain that the injectors aren't firing and that it's because I need that adapter for the signal to the ECU. Crane makes it clear that the normal signal from the box won't be correct to run the ECU.

The adapters' been ordered and if it doesn't work, I'll send it back or eBay it. Strangely, enough, Crane refers to the adapter in their documentation and in direct conversation with tech support. But they don't even list it as a product anymore on their website and you can't find one anywhere. However, MSD also offers adapters and they even use essentially the same part numbers as Crane. (6000-8920 Vs 8920).

[Will]

Wait a sec, unclipping one injector plug and sticking bit of steel wool in it and cranking is too much work? DAMN you got lazy on your vacation, DJ! :)



Hey, if it makes you feel better,
I spent the last 20 minutes trying to get a supercharger housing off the head-to-blower manifold, couldn't figure out why it wouldn't come off more than 1/4"- it turns out I'd used a transfer punch through the bottom ears of the supercharger to mark the holes in the lower bracket, and I FORGOT TO REMOVE THE PUNCH so it was in there like a hinge pin and 'cause it's black I didn't see it, I was like "WTF?! Why won't this $hitty thing come APART!! GrRRR!!!"
Err.... "DOH!"
I guess I need to paint all my transfer punches blaze orange. What a moron.


Hey Trent: If you can pull one injector on a Beta you are better than me. I usually end up having to loosen BOTH injector hold down plates and tilting the whole damn rail out, 'cause the hoses are always rock-hard and only about two inches long, so I can never sneak one injector out. I'm assuming you have replaced the stock hoses with something else, or are yours still soft after all this time? I've resorted to pulling a plug to test for fuel. Except for the 5th injector, of course.


-Will

[sickchilly]

Hey Trent: If you can pull one injector on a Beta you are better than me. I usually end up having to loosen BOTH injector hold down plates and tilting the whole damn rail out, 'cause the hoses are always rock-hard and only about two inches long, so I can never sneak one injector out. I'm assuming you have replaced the stock hoses with something else, or are yours still soft after all this time? I've resorted to pulling a plug to test for fuel. Except for the 5th injector, of course.

Heh.. I'm speaking from 124 experience, Will. I haven't injected the Beta yet. Quite frankly, I'm afraid to and procrastinating... I know how hard it is to work on now with a single carb!

[Will]

Haha, just keep telling yourself once it's injected you'll have to work on it less *often*!!!

Can't really give you crap as I'm on the 6th year or so of a motor swap currently.

[DJ]

Wanna really frustrate yourself?

Go to an AutoZone, Checkers, or Advance Auto and try to buy a noid light. Not only don't they carry them anymore, no one there even knows what they are. Aaaaghhhhh!!!

I've exhausted every thing I can think of and done all the troubleshooting in the Bosch, FIAT, and Lancia literature I have and the darn thing still will not stay running. It starts immediately, then, just as immediately, it dies.

I've even installed a stock ignition module with an Accel Super Coil and it won't run that way either.

I've swapped the ECU to another that is also supposedly known good.

I've jumpered the temp sensor with a resistor to fool it.

I've tested EVERY single connection in the harness and everything is perfect.

I've installed a tach adapter to drive the ECU.

I've wired up the stock ignition module to drive the Crane HI-6 which is one of the modes in which it will work.

I've even swapped out the dizzy cap and rotor and triple-checked the spark plug connections.

Etc. etc., etc. and nothing works.

I have fuel, air, and spark but it still appears as though the ECU is not firing the injectors.

I'm about to go back to a carburetor just so I can drive the damn thing this year. It's a good thing I no longer keep handguns in the house...

Any suggestions?

[Will]

Hi DJ;
Sounds like you are making the same mistake I do, letting frustration cause you to cease being pragmatic and organized in your diagnosis. Result: working in circles.

For example: Don't know if you realized it, but you wrote that you had fuel air and spark, but no fuel?

IIRC, (and double check me on this) the injectors on the Bosch are held high and grounded through the ECU. Take a test light to an unplugged injector socket and see if you are getting +12v on one of the pins with the motor cranking. If not, you probably have a problem with, or bad wiring to, the dual relay. If you worked from my drawing of the dual relay block, I did the best I could but I can't guarantee I didn't screw up somewhere trying to flip around the wires into some sensible order when I drew it.

You need POWER TO (+12v) the injectors. Once you have that, you need to find if they are grounding. I don't know if you found a noid light, usually they are in sets for like $20 on ebay and the like. You could also use a homemade fusible link from a single thread of steel wool, etc between a +12v source and the ground side of the injector. Crank the motor, and if the thread is still there then the ECU isn't grounding the injector. At which point you need to check the injector grounds- IIRC they are the ones on the CAM BOX END. If you painted or powdercoated or lacquered the cam box end plate or didn't use a star washer on at least one side of the Jackson terminal then you may not be getting ground.


I hope this helps, if you were within 100miles I'd drive over with some beers and help you out. Don't get frustrated and work in circles. Check to make sure you have enough bypass air. Did I mention injector ground and bypass air :)?

If the electrical tests are OK, fire an injector MANUALLY, take off the whole fuel rail if necessary and fire them all. They could be all clogged up, certainly wouldn't be the first time, although if that were your problem you should be smelling fuel quite a bit- maybe not if they are clogged solid, I don't know-never seen 'em that bad..

[SubGothius]

Perhaps this will lighten your mood a bit:
Noid light set on Amazon.com (clicky) (http://www.amazon.com/Piece-Deluxe-Noid-Light-Set/dp/B000BHKR00)
...and note carefully what department it's listed in (tab at the top or window title)! ::)
No wonder you couldn't find them at an auto parts store! :D

[DJ]

Thanks, Will

I'm traveling for a couple days so that'll help me cool off a bit.


Don't know if you realized it, but you wrote that you had fuel air and spark, but no fuel?

Huh? I don't understand that. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I know that my fuel pressure is good, I have great spark with both the stock and Crane ignitions, and my air connections are all solid. All checked, re-checked, and re-re-checked.

Every part on the engine is brand new and known to be working.

The fuel pump runs beautifully when it should. The injectors are all newly refurbished and known good.

EVERY wire in the harness has perfect continuity and the sensors all test good.

The dizzy is a Bosch so it doesn't have the fragile wire syndrome that the Marrelli has and it's providing proper trigger signals.

I have proper voltage everywhere it's supposed to be, including the injectors, and it's in all the right places at all the right times.

I've tried 2 different ECUs that are both supposed to be known good and both have the same result.

Two different known good AFMs have been used and tested multiple times.

I've replaced the Crane ignition with a brand new stock ignition module with the same results.

The dual relay seems to be working fine but I will try another when I get home. It's the only thing I haven't replaced yet.

I know it's something simple but I just can't seem to find it.

I've got REALLY bright headlights now, though. :D (Installed my relay kit during one of my cooling off periods.)

As long as I figure out what the problem is I'll be happy. But if it magically starts working, I'll never trust it.

[SubGothius]

The dual relay seems to be working fine but I will try another when I get home. It's the only thing I haven't replaced yet.
This might be an opportune time to replace that whole dodgy bit of kit with the Holley all-in-one dual-purpose oil-light/fuel-cutoff switch that Will's always recommending... ;)

[DJ]

Never heard of it. Must have missed it somehow. Please enlighten me.