Series one radiator grill

[Brian Wood]

My rad grill for the 'old nail' is falling apart so I need to weld in some new supporting slats. Does anyone know what type of metal its made of? I thought it was supposed to be stainless but I am not sure.....

[rossocorsa]

it could well be stainless but there is stainless and then again there is italian stainless! sometimes the grade of stainless used is not the absolute best and it will eventually rust my beta volumex back bumper has stainless with big rust holes on the underneath! your best bet would be to ask this question on http://www.viva-lancia.com/lancia_fora/list.php?f=10 if you haven't already as there are loads of fulvia people posting on there

[Will]

Stainless steel:

Non magnetic or only very slightly magnetic
Heavy for its volume
Throws sparks when touched to a grinder
Will glow to bright orange before melting (high melting point)


Most likely to be confused with stainless: Zinc alloys (i.e. pot metal or white metal)

Non magnetic
Also relatively heavy for volume
Generally does not spark
Low melting point, can be easily melted with propane torch.



If it's zinc, "Alumaweld" rod will solder it together. Stainless is more difficult and usually requires specialty rods, although I've managed to burn it together sucessfully with regular old Silfoss a few times.

No idea what's stock on your car, but the above should help you determine what you're dealing with. The only other thing I can think you might confuse with stainless is cast copper-rich aluminum, but that has a melting point somewhere around 1500F, about twice that of zinc.

Hope this helps.

[rossocorsa]

italian stainless for cosmetic trim tends to be magnetic same way as some cheap stainless exhaust systems are as well you know the ones that just rust slower rather than not at all!

[Will]

I think the trim BECOMES slightly magnetic as a result of grinding/buffing and finishing, as opposed to caused by its general metallurgy. I do know that most stainless steels readily become slightly magnetic when you grind them or cut threads into them.

It may seem hard to believe unless you've seen it, I don't profess to be an expert on metals and can't explain WHY it happens, but I have learned to always shear bolts and stainless cables rather than using a hacksaw or dremel, and file as little as possible. Not only do they become magnetic, they also seem to rust once they have been abraded- even where you have used a fresh wheel so as to avoid contaminants. It only took me about 20 years of working on boats to figure this out, so I assume most auto enthusiasts have not noted it.

I have heard that stainless alloys may exhibit varying degrees of magnetic properties, so you may be right after all. But the stainless should not be anywhere near as magnetic as the mild steel or a bar of CRS. If it's as magnetic as the hood but it looks like stainless, it's probably nickel plated mild steel.

[1,6 HF]

There are 3 basic types of stainless steel: austenitic, ferritic, and martensic. Ferritic and martensic are magnetic, but some austenitic alloys may be very slightly magnetic.

In automotive applications, I'd expect the stainless to be austenitic, and there are a couple dozen austenitic alloys. 200-series alloys are chromium-nickel-manganese alloys. 300-series alloys are chromium-nickel alloys, and are also considered nonmagnetic (unless, as Will has noted, you manipulate them in a way that messes with the molecular structure). For ordinary fabrication, 304 and 306 are probably the most common alloys, except in marine applications, where 314 and 316 tend to be used. If it's rusting, it almost certainly isn't 314 or 316. If it's rusting, it could be ferritic stainless, but it's probably not stainless at all.

Most austenitic alloys (except 303 and I think one or two others) can indeed be welded. But it's not as easy as welding mild steel. 300-series stainless is susceptible to high-temperature embrittlement (to say nothing of discoloration), so you can't use too much heat or for too long. If you really have stainless and it really needs to be welded, you probably want to seek professional help.

Good luck.

[Will]

Um, I think aoutomotive trim is *most* likely to be 201 (based on my extensive experience reading "Machinery's Handbook" ;))
but metallurgy is a hugely involved science which I know very little about, for example I view austenitic vs martensitic steels as a structure (and a changeable one at that) as opposed to a funtion of compostion (alloy). The analogy that sticks in my head is baking a cake: First, you determine the way the way the cake tastes by ingeeedients, then you determine the texture of the cake by how it's baked. Oversimplified, but my head is small and can only hold a little at a time! If (1,6 HF) pulled that off the top of his head, he knows a lot more than I do!

I think the question here though was what it was- stainless or something else- and how it could be attached? If it's a zinc alloy (most likely IMO if it just snapped off) then I think the best bet is an Alumaweld rod and a propane torch. (This assumes you don't have professional-grade welding gear, fluxes, and rods for stainless or stainless wire-feed wire, a luxury some listers may have but I suspect most do not.

Just as an aside, almost all of the welding I've had to do merely requires "burning stuff together", so this allows techniques that an expert would often not even attempt- and they often work. You can't get away with this on airframes or the chassis of race cars, but why is holding a bit of a grill together that critical? One time I got a nice trencher for next to nothing becuase a bolt from the shroud had come loose and busted a bunch of fins on the flywheel off, and the owner could not remove the flywheel to replace it. Neither could I, but what I did was to build up 3-D cooling fins on the flywheel by welding up layers of weld material on top of the bases of the broken fins. A pro would likely have dismissed that out of hand, but that same day I was digging several hundred feet of trench and the machine was running in nearly perfect balance, and staying relatively cool to boot. So I say, TRY something, don't let some "experts" or people who think they are experts, say you can't weld this or that with this or that....if it doesn't work, try something else. At LEAST half a dozen people were quick to lecture me about how the FIAT/LANCIA exhaust manifolds could not be welded together because they were cast iron, and *everybody knows* you can't weld cast iron. Thankfully, I'm just not a good listener and my manifolds are all welded up just fine now. :)

[1,6 HF]

Actually, Will, most of that was from memory, as I couldn't locate my copy of Design Guidelines for the Selection and Use of Stainless Steel last night. Too bad, as it's always good bedtime reading, with such passages as: "Clearly, if notch ductility is critical at room temperature or below, and the steel to be used is in the hardened condition, careful evaluation is required." Clearly.

In the end, I'm with you; of Brian has decent welding skills, he should just give it a shot. Besides, the multicolored effect at the welds could be quite decorative...

[omicron]

The grille is stainless.

Originally the slats were soldered together. We often have to resolder grilles for people where they have fallen apart.

[Brian Wood]

Thanks guys, have decided to give it to a local professional with some industrial quality gear on the proviso that he does not burn holes in it! It does seem to be stainless but is magnetic [slightly] and does not spark when touched by a grinder. Though it also appears to have been plated and then possibly sprayed with a clear coating...typical over engineering by Lancia ?

[KeppelmanJ]

It is stainless. I've welded on them; it's not easy since it's quite thin and stainless pulls a great deal when welded. That, and the guy will need to be able to grind and polish out the welds nicely if they are visible. Be sure the fellow you take it to can weld light gauge and has heliarc/TIG capability. MIG wont work. It's going to take some patience since he'll likely have to jig it up before welding.

[NMLancia]

I used a product called JB Weld. Not very elegant, I know, but it holds and is not visible anyway.

[Will]

Yeah, JB Weld and Marine Tex can be used to stick stuff together, polyurethane glue also....but stay away from JB "Quick", IMO it's garbage (polyester). Why JB would ruin a good brand by adding such a crappy product, I have no idea. If you want it to kick in 5 minutes, use 5 minute epoxy, not over-promoted polyester!

BTW;
I just did brazed a bunch of 7/8" thinwall stainless (316) tube with some Lincoln LFBC flux-coated rod I picked up at Home Depot, it works really well even without any supplemental brazing flux. and because I was doing it to make up a mini-tutorial, I actually did something I rarely remember to do - I took pictures!

http://www.savetheledges.org/test/misc/Boat%20Rails/7.jpg

[Brian Wood]

As a final to this thread a sucessful end as my local welder did a good job and it all went back together without too much problem. Has since completed a race at Spa in Belgium and did not fall apart despite the efforts of the driver !