Alfa V6 conversion - Attn: Paul M., Ken S. and others

[sprintcarfan]

I noticed Paul Millet posted on another thread regarding his Alfa V6 conversion. This might be a good time to ask a question or three about the conversion and possibly clear up some confusion. I am just beginning an Alfa V6 conversion on a Scorpion. The donor car is a '91 Alfa 164S (164 Super? in other markets) with 3L 12V V6 and 5-speed gearbox. Based on the pictures I've seen, Paul is using the 12V V6 as well. I know Ken is using a 24V and there are enough detail differences to confuse the issue (for now).

Paul, do you remember what you did to mate the driveshafts to the Alfa trans? Are you still using the Monte 4x98 hubs? Based on what I know about North American market X1/9's and Scorpions, I just don't understand how an X1/9 or Scorpion driveshaft can be made to work without some kind of adapter. Last night I pulled the inner CV joints from the both the Scorpion gearbox and the Alfa gearbox. The Scorp inner CV joints will not bolt to the Alfa flanges. Different PCD, different size bolts (M8 vs. M10), etc. The splines on the inner end of the axle shafts are different size as well. To add to the confusion, I have read that the Thema gearbox flanges in Ken Haven's car bolted right up to the Scorpion inner CV joints. The Thema and 164 gearboxes are basically the same, with a few detail differences. ??? The only thing I can come up with, is maybe the CV joint flanges on certain Thema and 164 gearboxes were of the smaller style that fit Monte/Scorp CV joints? Or maybe North American 164's used a larger CV joint than the rest of the world (not likely). Keep in mind I haven't even started to think about driveshaft length at this point.

The torque rod and transmission mounts seem easy enough to fabricate, and a LH Alfa 75 mount for the front engine mount makes sense. Which rear mount did you use? Someone mentioned an Alfa 156 mount in the other thread. The 164 rear mount won't work because the mounting point will more or less try to occupy the same space as the rear wishbone pivot. It's clear you have to use a mount from a FWD V6 Alfa to maintain the intermediate shaft bearing. Unfortunately the 164 was the only V6 FWD Alfa sold in the US.

Thanks in advance. The other issues with this swap, like frame widening, shift linkage, etc. are more straightforward and easily dealt with.

[monster monte]

Hi Sprintcarfan, It's along time ago :-[ but if i remember the monte driveshaft cv fitted the alfa flange on the gearbox ,(split them and fit monte cv with bearings to the face of the flange on alfa gearbox (no bearings or middle part on alfa gearbox side )and so the X19 (lefthand side as you look down at engine from the rear) drive shaft spline fitted into the the monte cv's both at the wheel and the gearbox(with half alfa and half monte again on gearbox). Both hubs are kept in my case as i still have a four bolt setup for the wheels. Mine is indeed the 12valve as i was advised (by an alfa chap) that the 12v has a stronger bottom end and also gives more low down torque. You say that you have tried both the cv's in different config's but it has worked on mine, strange ??? The only other thing maybe is that when i aquired my engine" it might" i say might have had 2lt twinspark cv flanges on the gearbox as the owner of the salvage yard at the time (1991) had a 2ltr 164 and had the wheels and brakes off of "my" 164 donor but as the "mechanic" said didn't want to have the 3ltr fitted so this could and i say it with caution could be the reason it all went together.The engine mounts were both 75 and not 156 with the support for the crossmember side fabricated to lift it up to the right height.I hope this helps let me know cheers, Paul ;)

[sprintcarfan]

You are a very big help, Paul.;D If the flanges are indeed off of a 164 TS, then they very well could have smaller PCD flanges; the Thema 'boxes may have the same smaller flange and that would explain why Ken Havens' Thema 16V conversion was direct bolt-in (at least as far as the driveshafts are concerned). I will talk to the guru's over on the Alfa board and see if there are any differences between the Alfa 164 TS and V6 flanges. Those flanges are easy to swap.

[davidb]

I admire you guys but Jesus . Why not just put in a 2 Ltr. F.I. '81 or '82
Beta engine ? They fit . If memory serves Peugot, Lancia & I think Volvo
[maybe Saab] were co-developing the V-6 for the Scorpion . Much
smaller than an Alfa V-6 . Good luck ! It's hard enough to restore a
"stock" Lancia these days . As Will would say: IMHO, my 2 cents worth .

[sprintcarfan]

Why go to all the trouble? Like Paul said, the sound. The power is not bad either.

[Will]

I have an alfa V6 with auto box, and I'm pretty sure my output flanges are larger as well. I can have a look. Well, more honestly, with a crane and some dynamite I can have a look. Pretty sure they were a lot bigger though. There are also a number of custom/semi-custom shaft fabricators, that can rework what you need for something like roughly $200 per. The trick solution for you might well be Alfa inners, Scorpion outers with new tubes welded over. Scorpion CV's should be adequate for the Alfa, since you can only get as much wheel torque as you have friction, and although the Alfa motor weighs a tad more, it should also be making the CV joint straighter, ditto if you've lowered the car. My opinion, anyway. X-1/9 and Scorpion CV's are basically the same animal.

[PAV]

Hi Will:

I think X1/9 started using same flanges in .... 79 with the 5 speed intro.
Would love to go with a bigger V6/V8 engine in my Scorp.
For now, the 2L would do. Too bad they don't have aluminum blocks.
My Scorp is pretty tail heavy and handling has to be a concern with these larger engines.

Perahps a small aluminum V6 is same weight as the cast Iron 2L 4cyl????

To maintain reasonable servicability, I'd think we'd need to insure that the seats where removable and that one could construct bulkhead access door behind the seat. As long as the frame did not lose rigidness.

Would love to get some fotos of everyones work.

BR,

Paul

[Will]

Good point about the alum block, the Alfa engine does not weigh a lot more than the FIAT 2L IIRC.
You may find this useful as it has weights, dimensions, and gearbox weights for damn near everything, except your existing which is easy enough for you to ascertain:

http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html

A tuner in the UK was talking for a while about making an aluminum FIAT block, I don't see that happening with the existing design for a bunch of reasons. Cost aside, the problem factors I see are rigidity and the proximity of the bores. Bore proximity is too close for individual liners, and nikasil-ed aluminum walls make the web too thin (I think) and AFAIK reboring impossible.
Then there's the issue of rigidity- the FIAT block is nice and firm because it's cast iron, allowing the stamped steel sump and everything is great. By the time yo go to aluminum, I think you'd find it necessary to split the block at the crank line A la Lotus in order to web around the mains and keep the bottom end together. After all that, you'd have a custom bottom end that was as un-FIAT as anything, and likely only philosophically acceptable to those non-purists who could save a bundle of money using a Japanese engine outright.

So,I think the FIAT block in aluminum is more an exercise in fantasy that a realistically manufacturable product. Just my opinion of course. I would be VERY surpised if someone undertook this AND managed to recoup costs.

Meanwhile, there may be Alfa or other Lampredi-based 4's out there with alum blocks, I don't really know. I do know enough to know what I don't know, if you know what I mean :) Namely that there are a huge number of variants of those motors that I've never seen, and doubtless some I've never heard of. There's a pic of the 12V I4 FIAT head on my website. How often have you seen one of THOSE??

OK, so opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one, and more power to that person if he makes an aluminum block and makes it work, I've done plenty of things people told me were impossible, so I'm not saying it's impossible, just very likely difficult and impractical.

-Will

[monster monte]

Hi All IMHO i don't regard the alfa engine to be alot more in weight than the standard engine plus it also helps to put the fuel tank in the front which also helps the weight distribution as long as it's kept topped up if you are sprinting, racing etc. Happy motoring,Paul ;)

[WildCat 714]

This is a conversion that Im thinking about doing in a few years time. Please take good notes Sprintcar cause once I actually buy a house Ill probably be coming with lots of questions ;D
Peter-

[sprintcarfan]

I'm taking notes and taking pictures. I've had the engine in and out of the engine bay several times. The engine actually fits really well, except for a small part of the very end of the gearbox. As Paul has mentioned a very small section (roughly 30mm x 75mm) of the inner wall of the left frame rail needs to cut and moved in about 30mm and rewelded to allow clearance for this. The height of the section that needs cut is actually dependent on the assumed final ride height, assuming the driveshafts are dead level.

The driveshaft flanges on the V6 gearbox won't bolt up to the Scorpicarlo driveshafts. The options are A) find a set of flanges/intermediate shaft from a 2liter Thema/164 and an X/19 right side driveshaft, or B) have the V6 164 driveshafts resplined and shortened to fit the Scorpicarlo inner CV joints. Based on the initial measurements I've taken, the 164 driveshafts are of the right length and OD to allow resplining, and this is probably the easiest/cheapest option, especially for North American folks.

[EVO92]

Guys,

Its been a long time since i've been on here (took a year off become a dad etc etc), I case anyone else is still working on a V6 conversion I can confirm the Thema V6 gearbox flanges fit straight onto a Monte as the engine (Lancia Kappa v6 24v) is finally in and now working on engine mounts....

Regards,
Martin
P.S lucky i had a Thema gearbox in the garage as the Kappa gearbox has the same larger flanges...

[sprintcarfan]

I can confirm the Thema V6 gearbox flanges fit straight onto a Monte

Was the gearbox an early V6 (PRV) or the later Alfa V6? If it was an early V6 it may have the smaller flanges on it. My Alfa V6 gearbox is from a 12V 164S (known as the Cloverleaf model in the UK and elsewhere?) with the larger flanges. The 164S/Cloverleaf 'boxes are definitely different than the standard 164 gearbox... gear ratios, clutch slave, etc. Who knows, maybe the output flanges are larger on the 164S/Cloverleafs and the later 24V V6's.

[mogul_x]

Good point about the alum block, the Alfa engine does not weigh a lot more than the FIAT 2L IIRC.

I'm not sure about that... guess it depends how you define "a lot".

I know for certain that the Alfa engine weighs 550 pounds, including transmission and all manifolds. I weighed the engine I pulled for use in my Stratos replica (12v 1991 cloverleaf). That doesn't include the weight of accessories, like aircon compressor, P/S pump, or alternator.

What I don't have is a reliable weight for the Beta engine. I've heard 375 pounds, but haven't confirmed that. Anybody ever dropped one on a scale?

[davidb]

Oh it will fit w/multiple modifications. I saw one conversion, can't remember where,
even had a supercharger. When the Scorpion nee X 1/20 was designed, initial
intent was FOR a V-6. It was a co-development project to spread the costs
among Lancia [possible Fiat involvement], Peugot [I think] & either Saab or
Volvo. Talk about a strange combination. Likely while it failed. My point is
the Scorpion engine bay was designed from the get-go for a V-6. What shape
& displacement, don't recall.

[EVO92]

Was the gearbox an early V6 (PRV) or the later Alfa V6?.

Forgot about the early engines (who in their right mind wants a French engine in an Italian car anyway!) The gearbox must have been from the later Alfa engine as it has Viscodrive limited slip diff.

Best regards,
Martin

[Darren]

Forgot about the early engines (who in their right mind wants a French engine in an Italian car anyway!) The gearbox must have been from the later Alfa engine as it has Viscodrive limited slip diff.


IIRC, speaking to Paul about his - he was advised to go with the 12V earlier engine because it was more reliable. I can vouch the reliability of Paul's engine. It sat on a garage floor for 5 years, before being fitted in his car and (touch wood) he's not had any major problems with it, and it's now fitted with an Aston Martin supercharger!! It has to be heard to be believed!! I think the next evolution is to convert it to megasquirt. Ref the additional weight of p/s pump and aircon - not likely that they will be used in a Monte/Scorp application.

Those of you lucky enough to be going along to Le Mans this year will see the beast in the flesh, and those coming along to the montecarlo Consortium rolling road day in May will also get to see some interesting modded Montes too!

Cheers

Darren

[sprintcarfan]

I think the next evolution is to convert it to megasquirt

I don't know if Paul still views this board or not. I've converted my Alfa 12V to Megasquirt. It was easy, although it needs to have a throttle position sensor installed (instead of a switch). I run Megasquirt on my daily driver (Merkur XR4ti aka Ford Sierra), it's the berries.

http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=22413

[Darren]

I don't know if Paul still views this board or not. I've converted my Alfa 12V to Megasquirt. It was easy, although it needs to have a throttle position sensor installed (instead of a switch). I run Megasquirt on my daily driver (Merkur XR4ti aka Ford Sierra), it's the berries.

http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=22413
Hi John,

Yeah, Paul does keep an eye out on this forum - he could well be in touch then reference your installation!;o)

Darren

[Otto-valvole-per-tutte]

What is megasquirt? I have no idea ...

[sprintcarfan]

What is megasquirt? I have no idea ...

It's a DIY "open source" engine computer. Can control fuel, spark, turbos, water injection, etc. It's tuned with a laptop. Originally intended to be built (soldered) by the end user from a bare circuit board and a bunch of capacitors, resistors, chips, etc, to keep cost down, but you can buy them prebuilt now.

http://www.megasquirt.info/

[EVO92]

IIRC, speaking to Paul about his - he was advised to go with the 12V earlier engine because it was more reliable.

To be honest I don't know much about these engines simply because i never needed to! (they always keep going). Over the years i had 3 different Kappa 24v engines, the first in a daily driver which cleared 400,000kms (without any engine work) before i sold it (I know the next owner had it for a few years before selling it on so for sure it topped 500,000!), second was an Automatic had done 300,000 but i didn't drive it long before breaking the car up (bought it for the engine) and the third has about 200,000 (I got offered the car for a price i couldn't refuse an thought the manual gearbox would be handy). As its turns out the third engine (from 1998 others were 1995) has a different/better oil pump system (a contact hot on tuning the Alfa engines informed me) so I'm hoping he's right and they found the weakness and improved it (even though in my experience any of the V6 engines are reliable anyway). As it works out this engine from 1998 fits better in the Monte as the cooling system is a totally different layout, had i used a 1995 engine the thermostat would have been in the way of the strut tower!. To sum up if anyone wants to fit a Kappa engine use one from a later model (1998 onwards i think).

Best regards,
Martin

[john.harrill]

To be honest I don't know much about these engines simply because i never needed to! (they always keep going). Over the years i had 3 different Kappa 24v engines, the first in a daily driver which cleared 400,000kms (without any engine work) before i sold it (I know the next owner had it for a few years before selling it on so for sure it topped 500,000!), second was an Automatic had done 300,000 but i didn't drive it long before breaking the car up (bought it for the engine) and the third has about 200,000 (I got offered the car for a price i couldn't refuse an thought the manual gearbox would be handy). As its turns out the third engine (from 1998 others were 1995) has a different/better oil pump system (a contact hot on tuning the Alfa engines informed me) so I'm hoping he's right and they found the weakness and improved it (even though in my experience any of the V6 engines are reliable anyway). As it works out this engine from 1998 fits better in the Monte as the cooling system is a totally different layout, had i used a 1995 engine the thermostat would have been in the way of the strut tower!. To sum up if anyone wants to fit a Kappa engine use one from a later model (1998 onwards i think).

Best regards,
Martin

Having lived with a 1994 24V Alfa since 2000, the problems with the early 4-cam motors were related to the oil pump drives. The drives themselves were not problematic; they were driven off the left (as you face the front of the engine) side by the timing belt. This worked for the oil pump, however it decreased the number of teeth that the belt had in contact with the left-hand exhaust cam. As a result, after a certain number of miles, that exhaust cam would jump a tooth (or three), usually immediately on start-up. Depending on the number of teeth the belt slipped, the result was poor idle and awful emissions, or bent exhaust valves.

Some time after 1995, the oil pump drive was re-designed to be driven internally; I can't say when, as Alfa left the US in 1996. With the internal pump drive, the path of the timing belt was changed and the result was more wrap of the belt around the left exhaust cam cog. From what I have read, this solved the slipping problem. That's my theory. :)

The relocation of the thermostat from the "front" of the engine must be a better engineering solution, as well. In my 1994 164, there are simply too many components occupying the space on that end of the engine. That, and the limited space causes many headaches. The newer Alfa V6s have the T-stat at the other end. This was not difficult to do, as there is a large coolant pipe running in the "V" between the cylinder banks any way.

Question:

I have a friend who is contemplating the V6 conversion on his '76 Scorpion/Monte. He is also in posession of a 1999 Alfa GTV with the later V6.

Based on what I have read here, Is this the best donor engine for such a conversion?

[sprintcarfan]

Some time after 1995, the oil pump drive was re-designed to be driven internally; I can't say when, as Alfa left the US in 1996. With the internal pump drive, the path of the timing belt was changed and the result was more wrap of the belt around the left exhaust cam cog. From what I have read, this solved the slipping problem. That's my theory. :)

The relocation of the thermostat from the "front" of the engine must be a better engineering solution, as well. In my 1994 164, there are simply too many components occupying the space on that end of the engine. That, and the limited space causes many headaches. The newer Alfa V6s have the T-stat at the other end. This was not difficult to do, as there is a large coolant pipe running in the "V" between the cylinder banks any way.

Question:

I have a friend who is contemplating the V6 conversion on his '76 Scorpion/Monte. He is also in posession of a 1999 Alfa GTV with the later V6.

Based on what I have read here, Is this the best donor engine for such a conversion?

The 12v engines have the same belt wrap problem. Seems like there needs to be an extra idler in there somewhere to increase the wrap.

I'm not too sure about moving the t-stat to the other end of the head. I would think you might need to use the later 24v heads and/or the later head gasket to get the coolant to flow properly. I've not paid much attention to what the early 24v t-stat/water pump housing looks like, but on a 12v engine the crank pulley hits the frame before the t-stat hits. So even if you move the stat to the other end, you still have the water pump to deal with.

I think I read somewhere else that the 24v engines don't fit very well compared to the 12v engines, but neither one actually "fits". I'm in the middle of a 12v swap and from what I've seen, and what I know about the 24v engines, I can only assume the front exhaust cam gear would interfere with the firewall. The 12v isn't a problem since the one cam gear in each head is on the intake side. In the grand scheme of things cutting a chunk out of the firewall isn't a big deal, you'll have to cut a hole anyway if you want access to the spark plugs. You'll also need a hole to allow the engine to sit at the right height. The angles on the halfshafts will be too severe (for me anyway) if you don't.

[Roger LA]

;)Hi everyone out there attemting the engine conversion with alfa 3.0.Congrats. I am working on mine now in LA and everyone that looks says that I am crazy. However I need some input mainly regarding the gear shift linkage. If anyone of you has a picture or a description I would appreciate it immensly, as it would speed up the process, and please keep in mind that I am here in US and we do not have access to the parts the european guys have. My donor car is a 1991 164 L. By the way my scorpion is number 675 one of the eary ones. Red with camel interior. I will modernise it and it is a long processe but I am retired and got time and commitment.
PS to anyone thinking about a 2.0 liter FI engine transpalnt, It is a joke I did one 15 years ago.
Thank you all and good luck. I will be waiting for your response

[sprintcarfan]

;)Hi everyone out there attemting the engine conversion with alfa 3.0.Congrats. I am working on mine now in LA and everyone that looks says that I am crazy. However I need some input mainly regarding the gear shift linkage. If anyone of you has a picture or a description I would appreciate it immensly, as it would speed up the process, and please keep in mind that I am here in US and we do not have access to the parts the european guys have. My donor car is a 1991 164 L.

Have a look at this....
http://lancisti.net/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=563&ppuser=
The gearbox in that picture is from a Thema, I think, but in the area of the shifter it's basically identical to the 164L. That's a Mk1 MR2 shifter in one of the pics. I think I read somewhere those cables are from a Plymouth Laser/Mitsu Eclipse, but I think the same type of cable can be bought from boating stores to different lengths.

[kens]

....a 1999 Alfa GTV with the later V6.

Based on what I have read here, Is this the best donor engine for such a conversion?

Yes and no. Perfect engine that does not fit without mucho modification. Interesting factoid, both the Montecarlo and GTV were designed by Pininfarina. I once compaired measurements and found the Montecarlo to be 90% of the GTV. The 90% comparisons were based on length, width, hight, wheelbase, over-hang, etc.

I had custom shifter cables fabricated by a California firm. http://www.push-pull.com/
Early into Alfa's cable shifter cars, the five speed transaxle was modified to accept cable shifters. I purchased these parts and modified a 164Q transaxle for cable shifting. The cost was a bit prohibitive. Next time, I would simply purchase an Alfa six speed with standard cable shifter. The only problem with the later transaxles is that you lose the speedometer drive. To really do this properly, you also purchase a Q2 differential kit for LSD. Loss of the speedo drive is associated with the Q2 LSD.

The cable attachments must be reversed for the rear engine setup. That is, if the cables approach the transaxle from the outside rather than the inside, the shifter works properly. I used a late model GTV cable shifter, turned to feed the cables to the back of the car. The shift rod was shortened and turned 180.

As I understand, the Lancia Kappa began with essentially the same 24V engine layout as the Alfa 164. Midstream, the Kappa converted to the safer belt drive arrangement. I am in the process of importing a 24V 3.0 Lancia Thesis engine.

I think that I have solved all the swap problems at least once!!!

Ken

[john.harrill]

Thanks, All.
The GTV's owner has found a new home for it, so it will not be providing an engine for the Scorpion.

Probably do forced induction of some kind.

[Darren]

Hi all,

This is probably a dumb question, but I assume the cable is thick/stiff enough to push as well as pull? Eg for the up/down movement on the selector rod, or the left/right movement on the gearstick, pulling on one side is easy enough, but pushing the selector rod down is a different matter. I take it that there is no play, so one works off the other - did I just answer my own question?:red face:

Paul Millett has a 12 valve 164 transplant mentioned earlier in this thread), which is now fitted with an Eaton M90 (I think) blower. He's currently looking for a more modern 6 speed box to fit to it. The original install was pretty straightforward with minimal modification required. I've been looking at the possibility of at 24valve install from the same stable - Lancia V6's don't seem to be as common here as the alfa unit.

Ken, do you have any pics or your car/install - I'd be very interested to see them.

Cheers

[sprintcarfan]

Hi all,

This is probably a dumb question, but I assume the cable is thick/stiff enough to push as well as pull? Eg for the up/down movement on the selector rod, or the left/right movement on the gearstick, pulling on one side is easy enough, but pushing the selector rod down is a different matter. I take it that there is no play, so one works off the other - did I just answer my own question?:red face:

Paul Millett has a 12 valve 164 transplant mentioned earlier in this thread), which is now fitted with an Eaton M90 (I think) blower. He's currently looking for a more modern 6 speed box to fit to it. The original install was pretty straightforward with minimal modification required. I've been looking at the possibility of at 24valve install from the same stable - Lancia V6's don't seem to be as common here as the alfa unit.

Ken, do you have any pics or your car/install - I'd be very interested to see them.

Cheers

There is just one cable per direction. The cables are (apparently) large enough in diameter to not buckle under compression.

[Darren]

Thanks for that John, so I hadn't answered my own question after all!!:scratch: Ken Haven's solution is very neat - Definitely something to shoot for!

Ken S - sorry, I meant do you have any other shots of your v6 install(s) - I have looked at the current contents of your folder.

Cheers

[kens]

Ken S - sorry, I meant do you have any other shots of your v6 install(s).....

Not really, been avoiding pics. Anticipating many more pics later in the year as the project comes together, again. Most people prefer cars with a nice interior and pretty paint. All of the modifications are heavily discounted without a finished project. This fall I am planning to sort the Lancia out on the road prior to paint. At that point, I have plans to shoot a video of the engine running. There is fear that the exhaust will be too loud. Obviously, if the car is too loud, it will be difficult getting my wife on board.

Ken S.

[Darren]

Not really, been avoiding pics. Anticipating many more pics later in the year as the project comes together, again. Most people prefer cars with a nice interior and pretty paint. All of the modifications are heavily discounted without a finished project. This fall I am planning to sort the Lancia out on the road prior to paint. At that point, I have plans to shoot a video of the engine running. There is fear that the exhaust will be too loud. Obviously, if the car is too loud, it will be difficult getting my wife on board.

Ken S.

Hi Ken,

Nah, I prefer seeing things come together - finished cars are great an all, but progress shots tell the story and may be helpful to others. Not sure what you mean by modifications being heavily discounted?

I'm interested to see how you got round the cross member issue - did you alter/change the crossmember or fab up a new manifold? Did you say the 24 valve unit would fit without having to modify the chassis any more than you would for a 12 valve? My reason for asking is that in the UK you can transplant an engine without major testing as long as the chassis remains unaltered. Otherwise you need SVA, which is a major pain in the ass.

Cheers

[kens]

...Not sure what you mean by modifications being heavily discounted?

I'm interested to see how you got round the cross member issue - did you alter/change the crossmember or fab up a new manifold? ....

I tried to say that because the project has not been on the road, some solutions are not tested and proven. For example, I cannot propose my brake upgrade solution without having used and tested the solution.

I have loaded some fresh photos that should help to answer and/or raise questions. Darren, thanks for prompting me to provide an overdue update.

Regards,
Ken S.

[Itsa Scorpion]

The cross member mod looks very nicely done. Did you have to modify the left side frame rail as well? ALso, I read somewhere that 164 automatic drive shafts would mate to the monte/scoprion outer drive hubs? Have you heard this or have other plans yet?

Great thread by the way, please keep it going!

[Darren]

I tried to say that because the project has not been on the road, some solutions are not tested and proven. For example, I cannot propose my brake upgrade solution without having used and tested the solution.

- Ah, I see what you mean now. I have 90% ofthe bits now for my brake upgrade, perfected by one of the guys in the Consortium - and should be good enough to stop the car under v6 power too! No doubt I'll start another thread when I get to it, but I need to get the other spider sorted first



I have loaded some fresh photos that should help to answer and/or raise questions. Darren, thanks for prompting me to provide an overdue update.

Regards,
Ken S.
Thanks for that Ken, I see how you've tackled the problem with the exhaust. Have you had to make an alterations to the area over and around the exhaust. Look forward to the next update! ;o)

Cheers

[sprintcarfan]

I tried to say that because the project has not been on the road, some solutions are not tested and proven. For example, I cannot propose my brake upgrade solution without having used and tested the solution.

I have loaded some fresh photos that should help to answer and/or raise questions. Darren, thanks for prompting me to provide an overdue update.

Regards,
Ken S.

I would be interested to see how your crossmember holds up with the hole for the exhaust. I think some strategically placed fillets would help there. I'm planning to go around the crossmember with the exhaust, but I was still worried about crossmember problems with no hole at all so I did this....http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8616. Don't laugh at my welds.

[kens]

Did you have to modify the left side frame rail as well?

Paul once told me that he moved his engine full left to offset too much weight on the RHD model. Paul modified only the left side. I attempted to position the engine so that the hubs lined up with the axle shafts. Initially I modified the left side only, the engine fit into place with too little clearance on the right.


...I read somewhere that 164 automatic drive shafts would mate to the monte/scoprion outer drive hubs? Have you heard this or have other plans yet?


I previously converted an automatic 164 into a manual 164. In the conversion, the drivers side axle had to be replaced, passenger side was the same as a manual transaxle. The 164 CV Joints are larger with a larger bolt pattern. I am saying I don't think that 164 auto shafts will work. However, I have heard of shafts that work, just not sure how to get there. This is a good question for Paul and/or I think he answered it somewhere. I used 164 CVJ on the inside, 164 axles and stock CVJ on the outside. The axles were shortened and smaller splines were cut to fit the stock CVJ.

[kens]

Have you had to make an alterations to the area over and around the exhaust?

Stock exhaust manifolds were utilized. The long downpipe has been modified to fit into the muffler/silencer. The rear jacking point has been cut away to allow for both exhausts pipes to exit just under the rear frame area. The muffler/silencer is a heavily modified unit from a Ferrari F355. I cannot recommend the F355 unit yet because it is heavy and I have no idea what it is going to sound like.

[kens]

I'm planning to go around the crossmember with the exhaust, but I was still worried about crossmember problems with no hole at all so I did this...

Your method looks promising. Hidden in my photo is steel plate added on the crossmember sides the length of the crossmember. I am not fond of all the added weight. The good news is the added weight is really low.

[Roger LA]

Hi Ken, would you mind sending me any pics you have on the engine conversion, espacially the gear shift mechanism? Thanx, Roger

[Roger LA]

Thank you very much John for the info and the pics. They are a great help. I was thinking about cable shift from the get go but always thougt they would not be able to handle push pull function. Now I know that it is possible because of your pics. If you have any other pics re the engine swap, I'll appreciate them.By the way the parts and cars you guys are using are so clean, in comparison my car and the engine are a mess, I assume you sand blast them.
Thax again Roger

[Itsa Scorpion]

Just wanted to bring this one back to the front and see if you guys had made any progress?

This is a great thread and I really look forward to seeing these cars as they're completed!

[kens]

I once had the engine in place, making progress. A few months ago, the engine of choice did not work out. Recently, a new (1000 km) 2002 Lancia Thesis engine was imported for this project. Kinda cool, the seller also sent the VIN plate from the Lancia Thesis.

There are some modifications required on the engine to work with my '95 Bosch Motronic system. Sorting through the modifications now, preparing for the installation. A 90° garage inhibits progress.

[davidb]

I commend one & all for attempting a V-6 install. If my
humble memory is correct I recall an article in "R&T"
magazine from years ago stating that the Monte nee X/
120 was intended to have a Dino V-6, something on the
order of 2.3/2.6 or so liters. When I say intended that
may have been an optimistic designer and/or some "R&T"
author that got ahold of some possible design plans. God
knows there's enough room in the engine compartment for
a V-6. Attatchment points aside I really think it was laid
out for a V-6. Dirty shame . . .

[JGreenslade]

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Abarth 030? It had a longitudinally-mounted V6 taken from a Fiat 130. It was a full spaceframe design, an all-out racer, and it doesn't bear comparison with the Monte / Scorp IMHO.

If there were an X120 with V6 that's news to me. What always gets me is the way Fiat gave the Volumex a blower, the 131 Volumetrico a 16v blown engine, yet the more expensive, mid-engined flagship a basic 8v engine with single carb...

Justin

[davidb]

As I scan my aging grey matter Justin [it's been 33+ yrs.]
I recall it having been a FIAT V-6 NOT a Dino V-6 that was
rumored to POSSIBLY be installed in Monte Carlos. That
being a "R&T" magazine snippet from back then in a "re-
cently spotted" pre-production rumor mill article. You know,
a tiny B & W picture of the engine in place w/a one paragraph
"what if" description. I don't think it was an Abarth 030 but my
memory is foggy. It doesn't matter as the in-line 4 was chosen.
I vaguely remember the snippet/article because I thought Man
that little thing would really move w/a V-6 of proper HP. Thanks
for the correction.

[1,6 HF]

I recall following the development at the time, and I can't ever recall hearing anything about the Dino V6; as Justin suggests, you're confusing it with the Fiat V6. As he says, one of the 030 prototypes had a V6 taken from the Fiat 130, mounted longitudinally. But your returning memory is correct--there were published rumors/speculations about the X1/20 (Montecarlo) using that 130 V6. I can't recall this being more than speculation; I never heard of any V6 prototypes (other than the 030), and that engine would have positioned it too close to the Stratos (then at some stage of production), in terms of both performance and price. And the 1973 oil crisis undoubtedly contributed to the product planning; the less-thirsty 132/Beta engine was a much safer choice. In fact, the relatively high production price even with that engine, meant that the car would be better positioned as a Lancia.

[davidb]

So I was half-way right & half-way wrong Ed [Justin]. Even
Steven. How the heck I got half-way close, I dunno . . .

[rossocorsa]

was told during a visit to the lancia museum a few years ago that they built a monte with a gamma engine and that it was fantastic

[Itsa Scorpion]

Hi Guys,
Any updates on your progress?

I'm about to jump in here on a V6 conversion too. Picked up a 91 164 as a donor car last weekend. The drive line is great, but the body is pretty beat. Has a lot of good interior stuff for eBay though.

Anyway, I'd sure appreciate any updates if you've made progress since the last post. Also, any specific location/dimensions for the frame mods would be helpful too.

Thanks!

[DJ]

Picked up a 91 164 as a donor car last weekend. The drive line is great, but the body is pretty beat. Has a lot of good interior stuff for eBay though.

I can't help you much with information regarding putting the engine into a Scorpion but I have a '91 164 for a daily driver and I'd be interested in knowing what items you'll have available for sale.

[Itsa Scorpion]

Hi DJ,
I'll probably be selling pretty much everything but the drive train, injection components, and maybe brake calipers and would be glad to help with anything you need.

This is a dark blue/grey cloth interior car and everything works, window switches, dash switches, gauges, and LCDs

Please just send me an e-mail at mark@gmpdiecast . com with a list of what you might need.

THANKS!l

[Geoff]

was told during a visit to the lancia museum a few years ago that they built a monte with a gamma engine and that it was fantastic

Wasn't there a test of that in some magazine? Auto Italia?

[sprintcarfan]

Hi Guys,
Any updates on your progress?

I'm about to jump in here on a V6 conversion too. Picked up a 91 164 as a donor car last weekend. The drive line is great, but the body is pretty beat. Has a lot of good interior stuff for eBay though.

Anyway, I'd sure appreciate any updates if you've made progress since the last post. Also, any specific location/dimensions for the frame mods would be helpful too.

Thanks!

I just uploaded a few pictures here http://lancisti.net/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=594&ppuser=233 with comments for each picture. Not much progress, but it does show some good info, I think. Re-engineering the rear crossmember isn't really needed, but it made sense in my case. I didn't see a way to attach the rear engine mount to the crossmember/bulkhead without it looking like a cobbled up mess. In a couple of pictures, you can just see the notches in each frame rail for the crank pulley on the right side and end of gearbox on the left side. Once the mounts are all made I'll close those sections back in when the clearances are OK.

As soon as I figure out my plan of attack for rust proofing the area where the lower rear crossmember mounts, I can start making some more progress. There will be some overlapping metal in there when it's finished, and I don't want to have to redo it later because of exposed bare metal near the welds.

In a fine example of putting the cart before the horse, I worked on the intake manifold. I removed some bosses and filled in some unused bumps and holes in the back of the intake with a TIG. I have a CNC mill now, and I'm planning to remove the Alfa logo and mill out a Lancia logo and stick it in it's place, similar to what this person did...
http://home.online.no/~utinglum/matramurenav6pageii.cfm

[Darren]

Some good progress there John - This is, I think, the first V6 install project with a decent amount of progress shots - please keep them coming. When you make up the plate for the plenum with your CNC mill, any chance you can run off a few copies for this side of the pond??:D

I pick up my engine in a couple of weeks, and a spare/template unit shortly afterwards. Mind you, I still have to get the current engine and Megasquirt up and running first!!

[Itsa Scorpion]

Thanks John!
It's great to see the progress and how you're approaching things.
Very nice job on the engine mounts and cross member. I had thought of doing something along the same lines for strength. I assume you're going to run the exhaust under, between the engine and bellhousing?

I'll probably be pulling the 2.0 engine in mine in a couple of weeks so the fun is about to begin.

If/when you do get a chance, it would sure be helpful to see a little better, the location of your frame rail notches on each side.

Thanks again!
Mark

[kens]

Good progress there on the project!


I'm planning to remove the Alfa logo and mill out a Lancia logo and stick it in it's place...

Hey, that was my idea! Summer 2008, this was done on my project. I had a Lancia plenum that required excessive modification for the throttle body and idle port. So, I used the 164 plenum with Lancia badge. The big plus is that Lancia logo is no longer upside down.

My engine is ready to install. However, I would first like to replace the tubes which run to the heater core/matrix. The heater tube replacement sounds like an ugly project. I found a thread onsite where Ken H. describes that the tubes are attached with spot weld tabs. The attachment points are sort of unknown. Anyone know the details?

Ken Stevenson
Texas

[sprintcarfan]

When you make up the plate for the plenum with your CNC mill, any chance you can run off a few copies for this side of the pond??:D

No problem there. I've been itching to mill one of these out to see how it looks. I modeled the logo a few weeks back, it's the same as the logos on the cam covers. It looks close enough, but there are a couple spots that need tweaking. Once I'm happy with it I can generate the toolpath and start machining. I might try to make a version the newer Beta-style logo that is used on the rear badges.

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/500/medium/lancia_script2.jpg

[Darren]

Good progress there on the project!



Hey, that was my idea! Summer 2008, this was done on my project. I had a Lancia plenum that required excessive modification for the throttle body and idle port. So, I used the 164 plenum with Lancia badge. The big plus is that Lancia logo is no longer upside down.

- Was it a stick in plate?



My engine is ready to install. However, I would first like to replace the tubes which run to the heater core/matrix. The heater tube replacement sounds like an ugly project. I found a thread onsite where Ken H. describes that the tubes are attached with spot weld tabs. The attachment points are sort of unknown. Anyone know the details?

Ken Stevenson
Texas
- It's not that bad really - just takes time to clear the way. Assuming that the pipes are attached in the same way left hand or right hand drive - have a look to see which side of the tunnel the pipes are. No matter what side they are, you'll need to remove the seat on that side and lift the carpet over to expose the tunnel side. You will be able to see the spot welds - 2 for each bracket , and I think there are 3 or 4 brackets. Simply drill these out to release the pipes. I would suggest cutting the bends off the pipes at the matrix end and you can then pull the pipes through from the engine side. If the engines still in place you can pull a bit through, bend it down and pull again.

I replaced my pipes with silicon hose an used the holes the spot welds used to occupy to run cable ties to secure the new hose.

Hope this makes sense! :D

[Darren]

No problem there. I've been itching to mill one of these out to see how it looks. I modeled the logo a few weeks back, it's the same as the logos on the cam covers. It looks close enough, but there are a couple spots that need tweaking. Once I'm happy with it I can generate the toolpath and start machining. I might try to make a version the newer Beta-style logo that is used on the rear badges.

- Looks good John - good luck with finishing it off and look forward to an update soon!

Cheers!

[kens]

- Was it a stick in plate?


I had the plenum milled flat and cnc plate made, exactly as John described. My design was based on the Thesis plenum.



Darren, thanks for the additional heater tubing info. The task doesn't sound so bad now.

Ken Stevenson
Texas

[EVO92]

Guys,

Unfortunately I've not made much progress on my Monte V6-24v project due to many issues at home/work/bad back.

But after a very long time searching I seem to have found a source for the necessary 1/2 shaft (the axle/shaft behind engine) to fit my viscodrive LSD gearbox matching up correctly to the Monte drive shafts (Lancia Kappa ones are too big, only a few Thema v6's had visco so its rare as rocking horse sh*t). Hopefully I will pick it up this week and finish lining up the block correctly and making the engine mounts.

Best regards,
Martin John Fisher (Hey John, funny coincidence with our names, there must be a link with Lancia madness).

[kens]

A nice benefit today for my love of motor sports rather than football. My family went away to watch the holiday football game while I started my new engine for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SHs0OG6oBQ

The large exhaust silencer provides a very deep engine note. This little 3.0 liter sounds more like an engine double this size.

[Darren]

Excellent news Ken - well done!! Can't wait to see some more footage in better light?:D Sounds fantastic! One question though - the engine looks as though it's the same orientation as standard - ie pulleys to the right, gearbox to the left. All the 24v engines I've seen are the other way round, although they were Alfa units - I take the Thesis is different??

Mind you, I've made my choice and gone with the 12 valve. In fact this weekend I will be mostly removing the engine and box from a 164 Cloverleaf that's gently rusting on the drive!! :)

Any more pics of your install Ken?

Cheers

[Will]

Ken: SUHWEEEEEEEEET!!!!!! :cheers:

Glad you finally got that beast running, I know how long and hard you have been at it! Must feel great!! More pics! More video!:)


John:
The way to do that Lancia script and make it like the original (IMO) is to pick up the edge geometry with a probe. If you don't have a probe, there is a guy that makes cheap ones for about $200 that pretty much violate the Renishaw patent (I have a Renishaw MP1s) In fact, for that particular project you dont even need a probe because you can probe strictly in X/Y using a bit of brazing rod turned to your endmill diameter in a chuck and putting the cam cover on a bit of insulating material and wiring to one of your machine's inputs if you can configure an input to pull to machine ground. Plus it keeps you from crashing a $1500+ probe.

For this you need a profiler program, I can point you to a free one if you PM me- it's much faster than bed-o-nails probing.

There are other less precise ways like a laser line gen and a webcam to make a quick 3D scan, or even just laying the cam on a flatbed scanner and filtering or retracing the image of the raised part as a DXF. But physically picking up existing geometry is realtively quick and quite painless- much easier than trying to draw it "from scratch" and get it exactly right.

Once you pick up your vector, any graphics professional or sign shop can run Adobe Streamline on it to clean it to a perfect toolpath. I did the pininfarina script, the "f", and the Lancia shield logo about ten years ago and have them as cleaned vector files thanks to a friend who is a package designer.I used them to make the windshield banner for my car, I think there's a pic of it somewhere in the photos.

But my point is that the probe is your friend here.:) Trying to lay it out by hand is for masochists!

[kens]

One question though - the engine looks as though it's the same orientation as standard - ie pulleys to the right, gearbox to the left. All the 24v engines I've seen are the other way round, although they were Alfa units - I take the Thesis is different??

The Thesis engine is the same orientation as the others. I suspect that it confusing because I turned the script around on the plenum so that it reads properly when opening the engine lid. In addition, some of my engine pictures show the Lancia script facing forward.

[Darren]

The Thesis engine is the same orientation as the others. I suspect that it confusing because I turned the script around on the plenum so that it reads properly when opening the engine lid. In addition, some of my engine pictures show the Lancia script facing forward.

No, looking at it, it is a different orientation to the Alfa 24 valve unit. It's the 'right' way round. Very nice install again mate - looks superb. Any difficulties in getting it to fit?

[kens]

Any difficulties in getting it to fit?

Yes, the engine really does not fit. Both sides of the frame were enlarged to accept the V6. In addition, the firewall has been modified by cutting off the top section and raising the fire wall to just below the rear window. I had the perfect car for this project, there was rust on the firewall due to a window leak.

I think Paul mounted his V6 lower, avoiding the firewall mod. I positioned the engine so that the driveshafts are horizontal. The later Alfa engines use a 6 quart oil sump rather than the earlier 8 quart sump. With a newer engine, ground clearance might be less of an issue.

Ken Stevenson

[kens]

It lives!!!

For the first time in over fifteen years, my Lancia ran under its own power today. Using the very last bit of daylight, I drove around the neighborhood half mile or so. I had no lights of any kind, hate to think of how many tickets I could have earned.

The challenging work seems to be done. However, much cosmetic and refinement work yet to go.

[Darren]

Yes, the engine really does not fit. Both sides of the frame were enlarged to accept the V6. In addition, the firewall has been modified by cutting off the top section and raising the fire wall to just below the rear window. I had the perfect car for this project, there was rust on the firewall due to a window leak.

I think Paul mounted his V6 lower, avoiding the firewall mod. I positioned the engine so that the driveshafts are horizontal. The later Alfa engines use a 6 quart oil sump rather than the earlier 8 quart sump. With a newer engine, ground clearance might be less of an issue.

Ken Stevenson

Hi Ken,

I had this discussion with Paul at the NEC the other week - you need to shave a bit of the left hand chassis rail to get the drivetrain in with a 12 valve, but he's not had to alter the firewall at all, save for making an inspection hatch for changing the spark plugs on the front bank.

Maybe the difference in clearance is down to the heads? You've got double the valves (and cams?) up there and they do take up more room??? Paul's engine is mounted very low in the car and low springs on the back don't help. I'm hoping to get reasonable clearance by using stiffer springs (not too stiff) and mouting a littl higher if I can get away with it! I wonder if the sumps are interchangeable?

Cheers

[Darren]

It lives!!!

For the first time in over fifteen years, my Lancia ran under its own power today. Using the very last bit of daylight, I drove around the neighborhood half mile or so. I had no lights of any kind, hate to think of how many tickets I could have earned.

The challenging work seems to be done. However, much cosmetic and refinement work yet to go.

YES!!!!!! Result!! I'd love to have seen (and heard!) that Ken - well done mate! I remember that feeling well of getting the car back on the road for the first time in over a decade!! Now the fiddly stuff starts with the finishing - good luck! Now lets see SOME PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!:D:D

[sprintcarfan]

It lives!!!

For the first time in over fifteen years, my Lancia ran under its own power today. Using the very last bit of daylight, I drove around the neighborhood half mile or so. I had no lights of any kind, hate to think of how many tickets I could have earned.

The challenging work seems to be done. However, much cosmetic and refinement work yet to go.

Congratulations! Any pictures available? I'm curious to see how you did certain details of the installation.

[kens]

YES!!!!!! Result!! I'd love to have seen (and heard!) that .......Now lets see SOME PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!:D:D


Congratulations! Any pictures available? I'm curious to see how you did certain details of the installation.

In my hast to get out before the day went away, some engine management items were unplugged. So, I am going to have to repeat my 1.3 mile test drive. This weekend I plan to take some photos with daytime lighting.

[sprintcarfan]

Hi Ken,

I had this discussion with Paul at the NEC the other week - you need to shave a bit of the left hand chassis rail to get the drivetrain in with a 12 valve, but he's not had to alter the firewall at all, save for making an inspection hatch for changing the spark plugs on the front bank.
Cheers

I think Paul didn't have to modify his firewall because his engine is mounted quite a bit lower. If you mount a 12V (Alfa 164) with the bottom of the sump even with the floorboards and the halfshafts level (on a lowered car) the front valve cover/oil fill cap/spark plug leads will be very close, if not touching the firewall. See attached picture. I had to cut a hole to have clearance for the spark plugs and oil fill cap. The engine in the picture is mounted forward about 40-50mm, so the halfshafts run rearward from gearbox to upright, to move the CG forward and to provide a small angle on the halfshafts. The frame notches don't need to be as large when the engine is mounted forward a bit, because of the shape of the framerails.

It looks to me like a 24v won't be much different, the hole that's cut in the firewall just needs to be a bit wider to allow room for the cambelt path that's not there on a 12V. That's assuming the valve covers are the same height between 12 and 24V.

[monster monte]

Hi All ! Sorry I haven't been on here for a while! Sounds like slot has been going on with the v6 conversions FANTASTIC! I have done the mega squirt conversion and it works very well indeed. It had sorted out a slight "pinking" under load with the Aston supercharger fitted now it's sorted. There are a few bids on you tube if you type up "montecarlo v6" a good one is " montecarlo at le-mans" as mentioned before they are 2ltr half shafts(into gearbox/diff) then they fit onto monte driveshafts. Unsure what's being mentioned about drive belt That fails so an extra tensioner is need??? On the engine side of things I used Alfa 75 mounts front and rear (had to make up a gearbox mount and used the original top adjustable mount(from head to turret on Alfa) turned it around and added a 500mm length bar(so it's still adjustable) so it now it's from the head mount to the out rigger( where the bumper irons fit) it's been on the road for 14 years or so now, been to le-mans twice around goodwood circuit, curbrough, Santa pod drag strip and Italy so it's done very well. I set the engine lower to aid handling which isn't too bad to be honest it flatters my driving style (I used to be a test driver setting up bentley, lotus, some Aston Martin, Rolls Royce etc I still look foward to driving the monster and it gets the looks best bit is not slot of people know what it is( although we've had BBC top gear on over the weekend all about Lancia with the monte being featured!! So now it'll be there's a montecarlo from now on!! Anyway talk soon keep up with the projects all the best, Paul

[monster monte]

Hi again so soon! A quick apology on the spelling front as I'm on th I phone and it loves to insert some stange words plus it's late and I'm tired!! Regards, Paul

[monster monte]

I give up!!!

[Darren]

Hi mate!:D

Nice to see you back here!! Quick question - what did you do reference intercooler? Was it bespoke or sourced elsewhere?

Cheers

[monster monte]

Hi chap, the intercooler I have is from a Nissan pulsar gtr as it has similar size induction pipes. Paul

[Darren]

Thanks for that mate - I'll add it to my shopping list! :D:D

[kens]

About ten days ago, before the cold snap, I took the Lancia project for a real drive. Wound out the engine through a few gears. There are a few things to sort out yet before applying paint and interior work. I made Pete, a local Lancia owner, go for a ride. It was nice for Pete to play along without a passenger seat belt.

The total drive was perhaps thirty miles. A GPS unit measured speed touching just over 100 MPH on a slight bend in the highway. Anyway, it was most satisfying to obtain an initial return on my build efforts.

[WildCat 714]

Heya guys, I just got my 164 donor and will be grabbing the bits I need out of it soon. Is there a list of components outside the obvious engine and transmission that I need to make sure I get? Thanks in advance!
peter-

[Darren]

Hi Peter,

That's literally all I got from my donor - engine, transmission, gear linkage, exhaust downpipes - although I won't be using them, engine loom and ECU, although again I won't be using it, as it'll be 'squirted' with the blower.

Driveshafts not used, as I'll be swapping the flanges for TS units that are the same size as the Scorpicarlo/X1/9 units.

Time will tell if there's something I need when I start fabricating!!:D:D

Cheers

[sprintcarfan]

Heya guys, I just got my 164 donor and will be grabbing the bits I need out of it soon. Is there a list of components outside the obvious engine and transmission that I need to make sure I get? Thanks in advance!
peter-

You'll probably want the inner CV joints and driveaxles. Like Darren said, if you can find Twinspark drive flanges then two left side side Scorp/Monte/X axles will bolt up to each side, provided the engine is centered so that axle plunge, etc is right. But if you can't get TS flanges you'll need custom axles to mate to the 164 inner CV's. The existing 164 axles look to be just long enough to be cut/resplined to fit the Monte outer CV's, but I haven't been able to confirm that.

Airbox... if you're going to reuse it (you'll have to ditch the airflow meter - won't fit), ECM/harnesses, torque rod at top of engine..... those may already be obvious. I can't think of anything else not obvious that you really need.

It would have been nice if I kept the factory shift lever, for reference only, when designing the shift linkage because I wasn't sure what I needed as far as throw distances. The 164 seemed reasonable IIRC, but the throws in my daily driver are way too long, so I didn't have a good reference point to start with.

[kens]

I utilized down pipes, drive shafts and wiring harness + ECU. Then, the down pipes were heavily modified. The 164 drive shafts were cut to length and re-splined to fit into the outer Lancia CV Joints.

Please reference a short video from last weekend, running through the gears. Trying to get near the rev limit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXS90GYYV4M

[mogul_x]

The 164 drive shafts were cut to length and re-splined to fit into the outer Lancia CV Joints.

Do you recall where you had this service performed? I have a Stratos replica, and re-splining an Alfa halfshaft for a Beta outer CV joint is a more elegant solution than the Alfa flange adaptor rings that came with the kit.

[kens]

Three years ago, a local machine shop performed the spline work. I cannot recommend them, a very small shop with an old owner, (70+). I feel lucky that I got the work completed. I did not exactly pick the shop by chance, they had a lot of experience manufacturing titanium axle shafts. The machine shop was originally recommended by a race shop owner friend over ten years ago.

I know there are machine shops that perform spline work on a routine basis, at a lower cost than what I paid. However, I don't have names at hand.

[HF Stinger]

Silly question, but since I DO lust for an Alfa swap in my 'other' Scorpion...

Does this elusive Twin-Spark reside here in the USA or are these flanges going to have to be sourced from a parts car overseas?

Also, what would a fair price for a 24v engine w/transaxle be? Im not interested in the harnesses and ECU, I'd be going with a stand-alone EFI for it. I was quoted $900 for this setup a few months ago, I was recently told that it was good that I passed on it since it was insanely high.

[sprintcarfan]

Silly question, but since I DO lust for an Alfa swap in my 'other' Scorpion...

Does this elusive Twin-Spark reside here in the USA or are these flanges going to have to be sourced from a parts car overseas?

Also, what would a fair price for a 24v engine w/transaxle be? Im not interested in the harnesses and ECU, I'd be going with a stand-alone EFI for it. I was quoted $900 for this setup a few months ago, I was recently told that it was good that I passed on it since it was insanely high.

I'm not aware of any cars that were sold in NA that had the proper flanges.

[sprintcarfan]

Do you recall where you had this service performed? I have a Stratos replica, and re-splining an Alfa halfshaft for a Beta outer CV joint is a more elegant solution than the Alfa flange adaptor rings that came with the kit.

Do a google search on "axle respline", there seems to be quite a few shops out there that can do this. The rockcrawler crowd seems to have this sort of thing done on a regular basis. Currie, Moser, Mark Williams, etc all list resplining services.

[kens]

Fortunately or unfortunately, the TS was not sold here.

Provided that the engine did not have excessive miles or damage, I think a combo engine/transaxle for $900 is a very good price. Many transaxles were automatic. If conversion from automatic is required, a manual axle shaft support is needed and not cheap, plus flywheel and clutch related costs. So, an assembly with manual transaxle is worth a premium over buying an automatic based engine. I see manual transaxles from $500-750.

Engine pricing is extremely dependent on mileage and condition. I have 4k in my engine, yet it has less than a thousand miles on it. These V6 engines are easily good for 200k miles without thinking of a rebuild. If an engine requires valves, the cost of valves and gaskets would be over $1k.