Engines

[Shaun II]

Argh................................... 1600 A series to comp spec 1800

I've started to rebuild my rally engine, it's not going as planned.

First problem, the plan was to rebore an early 1600 engine out from 80 to 84mm, the workshop thought it was not possible as there was not enough material in the block. I argued to no avail and will return with a head gasket and even another later 1600 already at 84.4mm. I've also found out that my B series pistons are 84.4mm so at least something positive came out of this round 1.

I was going to have the a series flywheel lightened until I noticed that the sach clutch cover from a 2L wouldn't fit, no problem as I'll use the 2L flywheel. This has 12mm bolts, can the crankshaft be drilled and tapped to take the larger bolts? I also noticed that the 2L flywheel clutch face to crank face is thicker by a few mm is this thickness critcal, I would say not and will just give less adjustment?

The crank itself is ok'ish are VP2 bearings still available and any part no.s, the mains have 2 holes not 3 like the newer engines.

I would like to install power steering but when I tried a 2L multi front pully on the crank it was too big, the A series crankshaft front ends are smaller diameter than the 2L. Does the ps pump need a seperate pulley or can it run with the alternateur?

God knows what will happen with the gasket sets, can the Spesso uprated head gaskets take 84.4mm and are the F+R crank seals all the same?

Distributer wise I have an early 1300 to used, anyone know how the advance curve differs from a 1600 or even 2L? Cams could eventually be GC IIIA's and I guess the dist will need a different adv curve for those.

Any other getchas out there waiting for me, gearbox is from a 1300

Will I'm at it, are volumex inlet valves the same as the newer 43.5mm valves found in thema or integrales and is there any reason why these can not be put into an 2L injection head(valve seat recut)?

[Shaun II]

In answer to my questions, the early 1600 engine can not be bored out to 84mm. There is at least 2mm less cylinder wall thickness than the more recent engines. Who ever wrote in his book that this can be done should be made to lift the bare block a hundred times. Not sure if an early 1600 crank and rods will work in a 2L block, that can wait for a rainy day.

The 1600 cranks can not be drilled out to take the larger m12 bolts, the crank is smaller diameter than the 2L.

Getting desperate now, looks like my spare volumex engine will be converted to high compression and carbs.

Arghhhhhhhh.......

[FiatFactory]

43.5mm valves are shorter in the stems than earlier valves, so you might need to recut the spring base to return seated tension back to standard and ensure you don't get any spring bind.... and the seats on the ealy heads are only around 43mm od, and its no benefit to flow having a valve head bigger than the valve seat ... you would be better off finding a late model head (post 81/82 in australia) as these have the larger valve, fitted on a larger valve seat, and also a higher port centreline than the early heads as well... the work has already been done for you

You could still use the 2litre flywheel, and sleeve the bolt holes in the flywheel back to use 10mm bolts, or you could find an early 1800 flywheel that has 10mm bolt holes and still uses the 215mm clutch.... drilling and tapping the end of the crank would be too hard .... rear seals are different 90x70x10 compared to 90x74x10 as well

1592 engine maximum overbore is 81.5mm... block casting is different, but you've found that out the hard way...

crank nose is different from ealy to later as well .... again you found that by trail and error, which is why the 2litre front pulley won't fit you 1592 crank.... timing belt drive gear is different too.

1600 crank will fit into the 2litre block, main bearings are the same dimensions.... but you would end up with the pistons way down the bore at TDC .... 71.5mm stroke and shorter rods in the tallest block doesn't work ... 2 litre rods have larger big end dimensions so they won't fit the 1592 crank...

SteveC

[FiatFactory]

oops... edit the stoke bit, I was thinking 1585 engines . :-[ ..

1592 is 79.2mm stroke, same as the 1756, and had the same big end journal size... but still has a shorter rod, and a shorter deck height than a 2 litre ... so piston will still be down the bore at TDC, but not as much... (1/2 the stroke difference + the deck height difference, about 5mm + 9mm = 14mm) but still a lot.... but it would be possible with a really long rod

[Shaun II]

Thanks for all that. Do you know how the volumex flywheel differs to the 2L and are they interchangable. I'm looking at a volumex engine and a 1.3L gearbox, from previous experience things are never that simple.

[FiatFactory]

Well we never saw either the Vx or the 1300Tc here in the Australian market, so I don't know fopr sure because I've never worked on either.

With other models, (124 for example) the bellhousings differ when a 200mm clutch or a 215mm clutch is used ... and a mix / mismatch the wrong way round gives starter motor engagement issues... similar scenario in 1300 to 1500 X19 engine/ transmissions ... so I would be comparing ring gear diameters and tooth count between the 1300 flywheel and whatever flywheel you end up using, and for good measure comparing the bellhousings/input shafts of the transmissions

Doesn't the Vx use a larger diameter clutch again? (230mm)

???Why do you want to now use the Vx engine?

SteveC

[Shaun II]

The volumex engine is the only thing left that's running! I'll try and find my vx gearbox and compare it to the 2L and the 1.3(once it's out) - bet they are all different.

All this started from page 139 of Fiat and Lancia twincams(brian ward) that states the 1592 engine can be bored out. I'll give it a couple more days of looking before stipping the supercharger and gubbins off the engine, it would, of course, be a shame to do that.

[Wallace]

Just a thought . . the VX engine has bigger inlet valves so might be the one to go for - plus the nitrided crank.

If you're going the NA route, vx blowers and ancilleries go for silly money on ebay. Expect nothing less than £400 for the blower, manifolds, bottom pulley and brackets . . .

If you're after a flywheel and clutch, I have a lightened MC one mated to a Thema clutch. Only 20 k miles - and we're talking cheap money !

[FiatFactory]

The Vx engine will have a low static compression ratio, so unless your going to (overbore and) fit different pistons, it will be short on power... with only around 8:1 CR

Doesn't the Vx head also have a different inlet manifold bolt pattern? (this is what I have been told, but like I said I haven't worked on one as we never saw them in Australia)

All 2 litre TC cranks are nitrided too .... from the humble 132's to the Vx models

Lots of later engines had the 43.5mm intake valves too... Oz market regata100s cylinder heads are the best value for money basis for a performance head IMO, and I've done a bit more cylinder head prep than most.

Perhaps look here ... http://www.turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2849 ... for a few pointers

Shaun ... what is it that you actually trying to achieve?? You'll waste a lot of time (and money) unless you have a clear idea in your head of what you need for your application.

Are we talking classic rallying? is there a class limit for engine capacity? if you keep it 1600cc (ish) do you have the benefit of a different class / minimum weight etc etc

You might be best offering the Vx engine for sale complete, and finding another beta twin cam engine for your project? As Wallace said the components sell for good money, but a lot of people would prefer a complete assembled engine to start with, rather than a box of bits.... unless you really want to pack things up and ship them overseas...

SteveC

[Shaun II]

"what is it that you actually trying to achieve??"

I'd like to get back into rallying with a beta coupe, I used to rally a ford RS2000 but the std beta seems to drive so much more..... better.

Historic catergories seem very complicated since only early 1800 coupes were homolgated and apparantly only 4(5) works cars were ever built. Two are for sale at the moment.
http://www.classicdriver.fr/fr/find/4100_results.asp?bsubmit=true&lmodelflag=10340&lmanufacturer=10067&whatbutton.x=0&page=0&lCarID=1717060
and
http://www.mobile.de/SIDcurN0cSJKGszwPC4EUtujA-t-vaNexlCsAsCsK%F3P%F3R~BmSB11Iindex_cgiJ1160396005A 1Iindex_cgiD1100CCarX-t-vctpLtt~BmPA1A1B20B13%81G-t-vCaMiMkQuSeUnVb_X_Y_x_y~BSRA6D1100A2E14700BGNCPKWA 0HinPublicA2A0A0A0/cgi-bin/da.pl?bereich=pkw&sr_qual=GN&top=12&id=11111111167269316&

They are a bit out of my price range.

That leaves the traditionall put a bigger engine in method, I have a complete series 1 shell with a 1.3L gearbox(4.5 final drive ratio) and just need the engine. The vx is now going to go in my 'everyday' car, couldn't bring myself to strip it and I should have a low milage 2L ie engine to rebuild. 1.8L engines are very rare, even more so with a useable shell.

The volumex indeed has a larger clutch but not sure if the gearboxs are interchageable, yet. Thinking about the head, the inlet gasket was different so maybe this head will not take a twin carb manifold. Bloody hell, I'm getting nowhere at the moment.

[Hamish]

Jings - could have got you an 1800 for free (well, last time I spoke to the guy it was free) good runner too. Not sure where you are, but you want me to see if it's still available :?:
Do NOT do anything you might regret to the VX engine..... getting very rare these days :o

[Will]

I agree, you want to save that Vx head for a Vx.

For one thing, the intake studs ARE different, the Vx center studs are placed to match the Vx manifold, and while it would be possible to move them, it's not worth it when standard heads are available.

The Vx may have marginally larger inlet valves, but IIRC the seat cut is nearly identical and the valve overlaps the seat a bit- the seat falling on the area that's normally the backcut area, and the margin extending outward further than normal in relationship to the seat cut.I'd have to confirm this via measurement as I have a couple of Vx heads here and can measure if you need. Unless you have a penchant for valve shrouding, this won't be of much benefit. The sodium filled exhaust valves might be considered an upgrade, but then again I'd rather have a solid stainless steel stem than a tube with liquid splashing around at 8000RPM, maybe that's just me.

My feeling is that if you want bigger valves, start with a standard head and get bigger valves cut in- and use stellite tipped stainless or EV8 valves. Unless you want to go all-out with Titanium or Superalloy valves, which seem to be getting cheaper for some reason- perhaps because they have passed from the realm of the esoteric race parts into the more mainstream sport compact tuner market?

[Shaun II]

Would that be SUSITs 1800, could well be my plan f ? Your all right about the vx engine, it's a good one too(tempts fate) so should stay complete.

[Hamish]

Yes - SUSITs engine ;D It was a goodie - don't know if he's still got it though as he was talking about binning it :o I may be able to find an alternate 1.8 Beta lump though......... ;) It would just take a call ;)

[FiatFactory]

"All this started from page 139 of Fiat and Lancia twincams(brian ward) that states the 1592 engine can be bored out" ... a classic Fiat myth started by an "expert" ::) who should have checked a few facts first.... those pages were written by gc.

Sounds like you have plenty of options.... if you had a "1592" block that had 84.4 pistons in it, then it was either a 1585 or a 1756 engine... might be time to double check.. depending on which pistons you have (compression height and dome height) they could be suitable for a 1756 rebuild after cleaning them up and installing new rings ... and give you a more suitable CR.... you definitely want this up around 10:1

If you can get hold of a 1756 block, then at least you will have a spare crankshaft (from you 1592 engine) to work on (lightweighting and polishing) ...

If you lucky you might be able to find a late 1756 crank (from a 77/78 132 for example) that has the 12mm blots to the flywheel, and the late pattern nose like a 2 litre... and then you can use the 2litre flywheel you have, and the front pulley for the power steering (which you said you would like to use)

I also think that with a 4.5 final drive you might be pushing the rev capabilty of a standard 2 litre ... they are a bit lazy in the revs department until you remove some excess weight from the reciprocating components ... whereas the 1756, even with basic standard parts, will pull a lot more revs safely and easily... and definitely be more suited to a 4.5:1 final drive for rally use.

Sure a 2litre has more in the torque department, but would be better suited to something around 4:1 final drive, and a lower rev limit... plus the engine is heavier, taller, slower to rev up ... so IMO a 1756 would be a good option for a rally Beta.... you want more responsiveness, but still need good torque ... a 1585 is like a sewing machine in the amount of revs you can get, but will always be short of torque for rallying ... unless you want to fork out for a close ratio gear set to keep the revs in it's narrow torque peak

Try and find yourself a Ritmo 105TC / Regata 100s head ... this has the bigger inlet valve, and doesn't carry the premium pricetag of the 130TC head, to which it is identical except for port size ...

Increasing the port size is easy compared to fitting larger valves and seats into an early head... and certainly something you can achieve without specialized tools. I do my porting with hand files, which would be the best way to learn too... as it's slow and steady ... using die grinders is an easy way to wreck a head as material comes off very fast, and it's too easy to take more than you want to from somewhere in the port.

Put the ported 105TC head on a 1756 block with the 105TC style pistons, and you'll get on (or just above) the 10:1 CR mark, you can use a late model 1756 crank and use the power steering pulley and flywheel you have ... all from the Fiat parts bin

If you want to build a 1756 with even more rev capability, then you can use the longer 2 litre rods which have a larger conrod bolt / nut assembly ... you will need special pistons though, but I can assure you it works well. This change also improves the rod / stroke ratio, which enhances the torque of the engine.

or if that seems like too much trouble, you can get arp (154-6003) rod bolts fiited to the 1756 rods, minor machining work required, and then you can also get more revs without fear of breaking rod bolts, which are the weakest point of the standard 1756 con rod.

there are lots of other mix and match options too ... some require specialized parts though, and if your just starting out, I would recommend sticking with as many "off the shelf" parts as possible ... unless you have a fat wallet.

hope this helps

SteveC

[Will]

Steve, I assume when you wrote "special" pistons, you meant custom slugs, with the wrist pin and oil control ring higher up relative to the top of the piston?

In which case- at that point it'd probably be prudent (IMO of course) to size them for a Chevy wrist pin and go with the Chevy rod- done by others before and cheaper than the Scat/Wiseco combination at a total cost of about $900USD for aftermarket Chevy rods and custom pistons.

Considering you need to drop around half that on the pistons anyway, the rod upgrade makes sense and has even more merit in an 1800 than a 2L because of the higher theoretical rev limit.

Thoughts?

I kind of stopped paying attention at the beginning of the thread on the 1600 bored to 84.4, of course that does not work with the 1600 centerlines as I understand them to be, so when he said he had one I figured this was one of those alternate universe motors, and I've learned there's no point in arguing with someone who fails to realize that the earth is flat. ;)

I've noticed some odd defects about 5 inches down the bore of some TC's, that don't line up with the piston skirts. It's almost like they were bored with the quill of a knee mill until it bottomed, then fed with the knee. Really really weird- and I've seen it on a couple. have you noticed this on any? Mostly on #4 IIRC.

[FiatFactory]

Using the 5.7inch Chevrolet rod presents its own set of problems ...

For a start the big end journal width (in both directions) is unsuitable ...

The bolt to bolt width is about 87.5mm ... so to machine it down to fit into anything other than an 86mm bore would mean taking quite a bit of material away.

Then the actual bearing journal width is too small. Fiat width is 25.7mm (1.01 inch)... and the chev is 23.88mm (0.94 inch) allowing too much side clearance, at nearly 1mm per side ... which I think is too much myself.

Then there is the actual chevrolet small journal bearing ... as the chev v8 is designed to have paired rods on the same journal, the bearing is only chamfered on one side ... and if a chamfer isn't put on the other side, the bearing binds on the fillet radius. This is actually the easiest to fix of the three potential problems though ... which is why lots of people use the chevrolet bearings in Fiat rods ... after resizing the big end ID of course, and cutting the approprate tang grooves....

The bearing material (about 7 different choice from Clevite) and partial size choices (from 1/2 thou differences across the parting line to top and bottom shells being 1/2 a thou different) for a small block chev is second to none... if you want it, you can get it to suit a small journal small block chev.

I'm still undecided as to the need for a 23.5mm gudgeon pin though ...(0.927 inch) as I have never seen a 22mm gudgeon bend myself ... and I prefer the lightest gudgeon I can put in an engine safely myself.

The other problem with a thicker gudgeon pin is that it reduces the area you have to fit the ring pack into ... Fiat CH is around 39mm, when the 2litre rods are used in an 1800, you need a piston with a CH of about 30mm ...

Yes they were special pistons for the engine I assembled with the 2litre rods into 1800 block/crank, but they were off the shelf forged items .. 85mm and approx 30.5mm CH with quite a large dome (that need to be machined down as they would have hit the head) and a 20mm gudgeon pin and skinny 1.5mm 1st and 2nd rings... and they were relatively cheap as they were for some Japo engine ...

Unfortunately I can't recall if it was the toyota 3t or some nissan pistons we settled on ... and that info was lost in a computer motherboard meltdown I had about 8 years ago ... this particular engine was built in around 1994 ... and my memory is fuzzy on this, I have built quite a few engines in the interim ...

This particular customer has a penchant for revving his engines very very high ... and this one saw 8500 and more nearly all the time... which is why we went down this path

the other reason that I wouldn't go for the chev rods myself ... you have chrysler neon rods... which are available as forged items very cheap (and also in a set of 4, not 8 like a small block set) ... and these also come in longer than standard lengths up to just over 6 inches ... just about a dead ringer for a Fiat 2 litre rod, except the BE journal is smaller as standard ... so it would mean grinding the crank jornal down to use the neon shell ... or re-sizing the BE to fit Fiat or chev shells...3/8 arp rod bolts as standard from manufacturers like Eagle.

So once again there are lots of options, but it takes a bit of searching... and there is definitely more than one way to get the job done.

BTW I think you have your 1600's mixed up (easily done)... it's the 1608 that has the different bore to bore centres (based on the 125 family of engines) the 1592 and 1585 share the same bore centres as the 1756 and 1995 ... all based on the 132 family of engines.

I've never really noticed odd machining marks from the factory in number 4 ... but this would be the cylinder thats most likely to have water ingress issues... as the two water jacket / steam holes are very very close to the fire ring on this cylinder ... a legacy of the bore centre stretch from 125 family to 132 family.

SteveC

[Shaun II]

Thanks for all the input, yet another question, how does the 130TC engine from a Fiat ritmo differ from a lancia? In simple terms will it be a straight swap? How can I be sure that it is a genuine 130tc, are there any casting numbers anyone has to hand?

Gearbox wise I'm 100% sure a VX, a 2L and a 1.3L box will fit straight to a std volumex engine, the clutch mec seems to work ok. This gives me the idea that if the vx flywheel is not unique, hopefully the same as a HF integrale, these are a good starting point for uprated clutches. The 230mm std clutch can deal with 185bhp.

I'm about to attack the bulkhead to fit the power steering rack, I wonder if it is just more straight forward to import a 1800 from the states!