Starting problem

[LanciaBeta]

Trying to work out a few bugs in the new car. It is not starting (sometimes) when the car is hot. Fine when cold. When I turn the key, you hear the fuel pump but no other noises come from the car. Absolutely nothing. But other times I can drive it around the neighborhood and get it good and warmed up, take it back to the driveway and it will start over and over.

Any suggestions?

[Jim Keller]

Aaaaah, the famous no start hot Beta problem, one of the few quirks you need to work around, I'll email you the directions to install a relay to fix the problem. ;D you can skip the fusing part in the directions, that is over kill by my buddy who is a rail road engineer where redundancy is important to be sure things work, like crossing gates and such ;)
Anyway, the probelm is the selinoid needs a full 12 volts before it will send power to the starter, your connections between the battery, ignition switch then back out ot the selinoid are cooroded some so the voltage is down and the selinoid won't send the power to the starter.

So, in the mean time, till ya get the relkay fix in, carry around a 12 inch long piece of wire stripped on both ends, when it does it's no-start thing, open your hood, go to the battery, at the bottom corner of the battery tray towards the engine and radiator, you'll find a wiring harnes, there are two red wires in that with connections right at the corner of the batt tray, one is square plug, the other round, unplug the round one, with your key in the run position, E-brake set and gear in neutral, hold your 12 inch piece of wire tightly, one end to the red wire going toward the engine, then press and hold on the positive post of the battery till it starts, this will turn the engine over and get you on your way. If you have someone with you, just stick it in Revers and have them give you a shove backwards, they always start much easier if you push start them in reverse for some reason, I have never figured out why other than the rotation speed from the gear ratios. I have even shoved the car backwards enough by sticking one leg out the door and shoving it myself if ground is level enough.

I see you have a 5.0 GT, Good man! ;D I have had 27 over my lifetime ranging from 67 thru 93, love em!
Take Care
Jim Keller

[LanciaBeta]

The guy who had the car said he had installed a relay under the dash to solve starting problems, so I think this has already been done. Maybe the relay is bad. I will get a piece of wire and try the work around like you suggested when it does it again. ;D Maybe that will confirm I need to change the relay or that it is something else. I got your instructions. Thanks!

I have always liked Mustangs. First car was a 1969 fastback. My family also had a '66 coupe and a '68 GT fastback (390!).

I later bought a new 1989 Mustang GT. As family history shows, we like Mustangs - my dad liked my 1989 so much he went out and bought a 1990 new. That is the car I have now.

[LanciaBeta]

I am having a hard time locating the wiring harness where you said to look. Where is the harness going to/from? Some of the wiring may have been moved around on this car - it was redone quite a few years a go.

[Will]

With a '78, I have to agree w/Jim, unless your starter is just going south, which happens too. Sometimes it just needs a good terminal cleaning, and cleaning of your engine ground cable. Once the ground cable isn't connected, the starter tries to pull all it's juice through whatever else has continuity to ground, i.e. throttle cables, etc. The solenoid may not engage, and you may notice a "stickiness" in the throttle (from getting welded to the jacket rom the current passing through.


But if anyone with a FI Beta comes along and reads this thread, you already HAVE a relay- the infamous Bosch "dual relay", and your troubleshooting should start at that point. since FI cars take their grounds back OFF the engine (cam towers) this can present in quite a perplexing manner whaen you try to troubleshoot the system.

ALWAYS CHECK the potential between engine and chassis grounds when cranking, if you are getting more than two volts, you need to ground the block.

[Jim Keller]

Doh! ::)
Yours is a 78, not 81-82, sorry, I am not so sure were the plug is on yours, but look for the medium sized red wire coming from your selinoid, that's the wire you want the relay on. I am willing to bet, the PO having it inside the cabin doesn't have it wired properly or like you said, maybe the relay went south, it happens! :)

[SubGothius]

Sounds a bit like what my '79 Zagato was doing; although in the course of troubleshooting I did find the PO-applied relay wiring appeared a bit dodgy (and the Bosch relay itself was encrusted with a white powder inside when I opened it up!), in the end, the real problem turned out to be the solenoid. The screws holding the solenoid endcap (where all the terminals and contacts are) to the solenoid body had fallen out, so when/if the ignition key engaged the relay that engaged the solenoid that engaged the starter motor, the solenoid plunger would push the endcap away from the solenoid body, breaking contact and ever-weakening the thin winding wires holding it all together in the absence of those endcap screws (and oil/dirt getting into the contacts between cap and body didn't help matters any). A local Bosch-approved alternator exchange shop rebuilt my solenoid for only $20 (http://lancisti.net/forum/index.php?topic=1752.msg11464#msg11464) (looks brand-new, guessing they only kept the winding innards?), problem solved.

[LanciaBeta]

Well, I haven't had much time to troubleshoot. But I went out today and traced a black wire from the solenoid back to the firewall. It appears that it goes to a relay under the dash that is probably the one installed by the PO.

So I cut the wire and used another wire to touch-connect it to the battery. Started right up. So I put a male/female connector on that wire to hook it back together. And made a jumper wire with the same connector so I can disconnect the main connection and hook up the temp jumper to the battery.

Drove it around until it was good and hot. Sure enough, it wouldn't start with the key. Tried the jumper and it fired immediately. Guess I will swap the relay. Then trace all the wiring to the relay and compare it to the instructions you guys gave me.

At least I can get it started now if I have to....