LB Engine Removal Cradle Specifications Question

[Jim Fierst]

It appears that I am going to have to remove the engine /transaxle in the LBZ. I want to build a "cradle' to be able to take it out the bottom. Are there any specifications on building one of these or do I have to do my own thing?? TIA Jim

[SubGothius]

If you mean dropping the subframe w/ the full drivetrain attached, I recall that Chris Pope (aka "Pope1" here) (http://lancisti.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=486) used to have a webpage posted with instructions and photos detailing the process (a much more usable and concise reference than Haynes!), along with dimensions for building a subframe cradle-trolley. That reference seems to have disappeared from the Web, so I've been meaning to ask him to either repost or let me repost them on my own site -- no time like the present, I s'pose...

[Pope1]

Sorry they disappeared for a while but my notes are back online now and can be found here:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/pope171/beta/beta_engine_removal.htm
The trolley was made from 2" x 4" bits of wood.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you need any more information.

[Pete]

Is it possible to leave the sub-frame and suspension intact and then remove the whole assembly from the car. That way it could all be moved around on the road wheels, albeit with a bit of balancing. I realise this might be a more awkward method of manoevering, but to move the assembly to a work area would only be a short distance.

Regards

Pete

[Pope1]

Pete,

I would not like to say that it's impossible as someone else may have found a way to do it but I certainly would not recommend for the following reason. Once you have the subframe etc disconnected from the car, there is nothing to keep the suspension arms level. If you put the wheels back on and try to support the weight of the engine etc on them, the arms will pivot upwards, the subframe will go down and the wheels will no longer be vertical.

It's also much better to spread the weight (which is considerable) over 4 points directly under the cradle than 2.

[Pete]

I really should have known that.

I suppose the only way it could be done would be to fit a brace across the top of the struts.

Regards

Pete

[SubGothius]

I suppose the only way it could be done would be to fit a brace across the top of the struts.
Then you'd still need some way of supporting the subframe while you lifted the body away, before you could attach any bracing. That plus other complications involved, like having to compress and remove the springs, would all more-than-outweigh any apparent convenience of leaving the wheels attached.

BTW, note that, in the method Chris provided for dropping the subframe w/ drivetrain, the struts stay attached to the body; they do not come out with the subframe assembly. Leaving the wheels and struts off also gives better access to service wheel bearings, CV joints/boots, brake rotors, balljoints, etc. ;)

[Pope1]

I still think it would prove to be unstable and cumbersome with the top of the struts linked. In addition, one good reason for leaving the struts attached to the car is that the studs at the top can be used to attach a lifting plate. Remove the struts and you have to devise an alternative means of lifting. It really is a lot easier to construct the cradle with wheels as I did.

Having said all that, the most difficult thing with this method is having to lift the car body so high. See this photo http://lancisti.net/mkportal/modules/gallery2/index.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=16744 Even I would now be hard pressed to repeat this feat as I no longer have the same convenient garage facilities as before. What do I miss most about not living in Barbados any more? My garage. :( Sad but true!

[Pete]

Thanks guys, it was not my intention to hijack this thread but just to enquire about another method, which you have proven to be unsuitable. You have saved me a lot of grief when I come to remove my engine in the none too distant future. I hope this discussion was also of help to Jim and others thinking of doing the same thing.

Thanks again

Pete

[KeppelmanJ]

Chris, nice picture of the Beta hanging. All very tidy. I do have a stout truss to hang my car from so let me ask you this. I see the running gear still attached to the tranny. Could you separate the subframe from the suspension at the inner CV joints and leave the whole suspension in place?

Johnny Keppelman

[Pope1]

Thanks John. It is possible to do what you have suggested but IMO it involves more work and, having removed and replaced my sub-frame twice now, it's definitely not the way I'd go.

What I like about the method that I used is that the engine and running gear all come off together in one unit and then if you need to take things apart, you have room to do so. To get to the stage shown below, I had to disconnect the brake calipers, the upper ball joints and the bottom of the struts. BTW the calipers were still connected to the brake lines and were just tied to the stuts to keep them out of the way.

If you want to leave the suspension connected, you'll have to disconnect the CV joints, the front anti-roll bar and the suspension arms instead. You'll end up with the CV joints, the hubs and the suspension arms still attached to the body but just flopping around and getting in the way, especially if you have to move the car body while the engine is out. OK that saves undoing the strut and the ball joints but I think that the bottom of the strut and the ball joints are more accessible and easier to remove.

Finally, last time I had the engine out, I changed one of the CV boots and all the suspension bushes. It was all very easy with the whole lump out of the car and it was also easy to get everything back together at the end.

Sorry for the long post but I hope that helps.

http://home.caribsurf.com/chrysalis/beta/beta_eng.jpg

[Jim Keller]

Sorry I'm late to the party, there is a much easier way for Jim to do this and it only requires a mechanics creeper and two 1" x 12" x about 4 feet long boards.
Disconect all electricals, waterlines and fuel, take out the top bolts of the struts, remove from the brackets and tie back the brake calipers, disconnect the shifter, remove the A/C compressor from the bracket and tire it to the car body, disconnect anything else I forgot about or didn't know about since your dealing with a 79, put the two 1 X 12's side by side accross the creeper so they overhang either end and cover the padding, this gives the creeper enough strength to hold the entire drive train and front suspension and keeps it from damaging the creeper. Now with the car up as high as you can get it on jack stands placed so they will not interfer with the subframe as iut is lowered, hookup an engine hoist to the drive train and put a tad of tension on it but not enough to raise the car from the jack stands, take out the remaining four large sub-frame bolts and carefully/slowly lower the drive train onto the creeper, positioning the creeper for even distributoin of weight. once the drive train is sitting on the creeper, disconnect the hoist from the drive train and hood it to the bolt that holds the upper dog bone motor mount to the body and raise the body up as high as you can, then roll the drive train out tne "passenger" side as there is more room in the wheel well to go out that side. installation is the reverse <snicker> and thats how we do it here

Hope that helps!

[Pope1]

Excellent input Jim. Thanks for sharing that. I would never have thought of using the dogbone mounting bolt to lift the car body and I will bear that in mind now that I don't have my overhead lifting beam available any more. Apart from using that method to lift the car body, I think the process is very similar isn't it? Disconnect everything, get trolley or creeper underneath to take the weight of engine and tranny, undo sub-frame bolts and lift car body clear. No doubt about it though, using a single lifting point at the front of the car makes life much easier than two points further back.

[Jim Keller]

Yup, and in fact, your cradel looks almost exactly like the first one I made, but I had to buy lumber, casters, spend time building it, then when I started stripping and restoring Betas there for a while, I found the cradle didn't hold up, (poor craftsmanship on the part of the builder), and due to the creeper sitting a few inches lower I also didn't have to lift the car that last couple inches when the engine hoist starts to get a tad unstable :o, and to tell the truth, it was just easier and quicker, (lazier way, and I am pretty darn lazy! ;D), to slam the two boards in the corner of my shop on my creeper to protect the padding and distribute the weight so my plastic creeper didn't break than go out and buy more lumber and spend more time to repair the cradel ;)

[Pope1]

Absolutely right! The castors are a little too high and with prolonged use the wood can split so I'd put it down to the choice of material rather than the craftsmanship. However, with limited use, my trolley lasted about 10 years and the additional height of the trolley meant that nothing dragged on the floor when moving the engine around. Something like a palette jack would be ideal if it had the right dimensions and lift but then we'd be talking a lot of $$$ for something that is not used often.

[Jim Fierst]

Thanks Guys..I just returned from the OR'06 Fiat & Lancia get together in Ashland Oregon. About 1800 miles round trip in which I seem to have lost the 2nd gear in the Turbo Spioder transmission.
I am not certain if it is worth pulling the engine to stop the pan leaks or not. I did find the small breather elbow was toast so that could have part of the leaking. It is good to know that you do not have to break the brake or A/C lines. And that bit about getting as low as possible with a creeper.

[Pope1]

Jim,

Sorry to hear about your mishap and sorry to burst your bubble regarding the A/C. My car does neither A/C nor heater fitted so I omitted to mention anything about them. However, there must be lines running into the cabin for both systems and they will also need to be disconnected. :(

[Jim Keller]

You don't have to open the A/C lines on removal of the drive train and craddle, once you tie the A/C compressor into the space where the radiator was you drop the motor out, none of the lines are connected to the engine or craddle, they are attached to the right frame rails from the compressor so removing and tieing it out of the way is all you do for that. And the brakes are same, just tie the calipers up and ouit of the way, no need to open or remove any of that.
I envy you not having the A/C system to begin with!, the engine bay's are so much cleaner, open and easier to work in without it, but my wife won't let me strip it out! ::)

[Pope1]

Ah, much easier than I thought. That IS good news.

Funny you should mention the A/C cluttering up the engine bay as I have the Volumex supercharger doing just that in place of the AC so it's probably six of one and half a dozen of the other. :o At one stage I spent ages trying to figure out how to add an A/C system to mine which would really have complicated matters. I gave up in the end even though I discovered that South African Volumex cars have achieved this feat by mounting the alternator on the inside of the front wing/fender.

[Jim Keller]

I tell ya what, I'll swap ya my A/C system for your Volumex system, and I'll pay ALL freight costs! ;D and I don't care what the wife says! I'll take the extra performance anyday! LOL