Carb hose?

[ecohen2]

Well, after spending the weeking trying to figure out why I can't seem to adjust my mixture or idle I started removing pieces and discovered more of the previous owners handy work.

Take a look:
http://homepage.mac.com/developered/PhotoAlbum31.html

In the first picture, I removed the solonoid on the carb and discovered a vacuum hose nipple with no hose. Where does this go?

In the second picture is a blurred screw just to the right of the solonoid and above a black hose. This screw is going into some mount on the intake manifold. What is suppose to go there?

I pulled the solonoid and discovered it had been gutted, so I am curious if this was done as part of that mod?

Thanks,
Ed

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Ed,
In the UK the 1600 cc engined Betas have that connection for the advance/retard device on the distributor. I don't think that my Montecarlo has such a pipe but the 2 litre front-wheel-drive Beta engines tend to have that pipe sealed off with a small rubber cap.

Leo

[ecohen2]

You are correct, the scorpion has weights and springs advance for the timing. I plugged the nipple on the carb last night and it made the engine more consistant.

Does anyone else have any ideas?

[ecohen2]

Could someone pleeeaaaassseee take a picture or a look at a 32 DATRA just below the solonoid and tell me where the hoses go?

I have this hole on my intake manifold and on the carb that are really giving me problems...

Thanks,
Ed

[SubGothius]

On my '79 2L Zagato with a 30/32 DHTA (same Weber family), the hose on that nipple under the idle-cutoff solenoid goes to the vacuum advance capsule on the distributor (which also has mechanical advance, so the two types of advance are not mutually exclusive). Actually, to be precise, the hose goes to a delay valve, which detours to a thermovalve in the coolant line and then to the vacuum advance, but this need not be a treatise on final-year-for-carbs California emissions kit apparently engineered by Rubio Goldbergi... :D ;D

If your dizzy has no vacuum advance capsule for some strange reason (replaced without one?), then just pop a cap on that nipple. FWIW, my Zag also has a strange nipple on top of the intake manny, right next to the (block-mounted) dizzy -- at first I thought it was a testing ground for HT leads, as it looks almost exactly like a sparkplug terminal, but then I noticed what appears to be a pinhole thru its center... ???

[ecohen2]

I have the exact same sparkplug terminal looking thing and that is what has a screw jammed down it at the moment. I am going to remove that screw and cap it off properly.

As for my distributor, I don't think it has any vacuum advance fittings and is completely mechanical. Ill double check that and if thats the case ill continue to leave the line on the carb capt off.



Back in the garage later tonight...



Thanks,
Ed

[bjmarsh]

Ed,

The connection is a vac line for the EGR valve. (short answer)

It is a ported vac line (only opens when the car is not at idle) that goes to a thermoswitch on the intake manifold and then to the EGR capsule.

The thermovalve ensures the EGR is only recycling exhaust when the engine is warm (otherwise it will stumble and die). The ported vac connections allows EGR only when the throttle is activated, at idle you do not want EGR or the engine will stumble and die.

If no smog test in your state, just cap the line, leaving it oipen will give you a permanent vac leak.

Have you bought the documentation for your car yet? Look for a copy of the Beta emission manual, it is all covered (and more!)

Barry

[ecohen2]

I have the shop manual, which is of no help whatsovever..

At this point, I kind of have to make a decision about which way I want to go with the car. I have been keeping it 100% original and actually restored all of the emission stuff, or so I thought. When the car is cold, I cannot get it to hold an idle above about 400 rpms, at which point the engine is shaking.

Is the sensor you are referring to on the intake manifold and looks like a spark plug? Or does it go to this wacky looking sensor over by the air filter?

If you could point me to where I can get a copy of this other manual, I would gladly purchase it. I am not thrilled with the one I have.

Thanks,
Ed

[bjmarsh]

Ed,

The thermovalve sensor for the EGR is a located on the top of the intake manifold not far from the carb. it should have two ports on it (it is also probably bad, since this is a very common failure item)

Your "Wacky sensor" is an air diverter valve for the air pump, since you have no intake pulley to drive the pump you do not need this. (it's purpose was to vent the pump to the atmosphere to prevent backfiring on de accleration).

I saw an Beta emission manual on ebay several weeks ago, they appear randomly.

The two best sources are the Haynes Beta manual ( covers engine & transaxle only) only no scorp content no smog stuff and #1, the parts catalog available from several sources including Chad at Monte Hospital.

Even an early 124 manual will show you most of the emissions system and all Fiat / Lancia products from that era were pretty similiar.

Buy a parts manual! you could build a car from it's description (no SMOG content however)

If you do not need Smog equipment, very little reason to keep it "stock" no concours value (Ha) either save it or sell it to some poor guy trying to pass smog in a regulated state (it's virtually impossible to pass in Cal w/o everything present and working) Good Luck.

Barry

[ecohen2]

Hey Barry,

I really appreciate the info. So basically what you are telling me is that I should scrap all of my emissions stuff now that I have vintage tags and don't need to pass inspection.. This is a very real possiblity, but somewhat depressing considering how much work I have put in to make the car original. I think I am going to go ahead and run the vacuum line to the spark-plug looking thing on the manifold since that seems to be the only piece that has a place for the hose and sounds like the sensor you are talking about.

That photo is old, I actually have replaced all those hoses and have the pulley back on the cam. Like I said, I have been trying to make this all original..

Ed

[bjmarsh]

Hi Ed,

Not trying to depress you, if you want to keep it all original it's your choice. Until recently, I think my car was probably the "reference vehicle" for emission control devices, original owner (me), with all smog equipment still intact due to bi-annual CA inspections. Now as part of the 2L FI conversion project it's all being replaced. (but the parts are not for sale)

The reason it is so easy to de-smog a Scorpion is the lack of engineering that went into Smogging it in the first place. The entire system is a "kludge" of parts, hastily assembled and poorly engineered. If you decide to stay stock then watch out for:

1) Air pumps ("cleverly" driven by a pulley located on the intake cam shaft) can seize up, this could result in either a broken cam belt or a change in cam timing. The 1.8L are interference engines, best to run the air pump belt a little loose just in case.

2) The thermovalve in the intake manifold usually fails closed (in my experience anyway). This means your EGR system is non-functional since the EGR valve vacumn is routed through the thermovalve (if it fails open, it is even worse, you then get EGR at idle and the car will not idle properly).

3) Cats are usually not a big problem, they just get clogged over time and increase back pressure. A new CAT on a poorly running (rich) engine can get very hot (dangerously hot) and create nasty heat related failures...

4) The fast idle electrovalve can become intermittent giving you a fast idle when you do not want it.

5) The numerous extra vac lines can all develop leaks over time creating problems that can be difficult to troubleshoot.

6) The Tachiometric switch can fail, cutting off power to the idle circuit solenoid, this creates a no idle below 1200 situation, unless the guts of the solenoid have already been removed (in which case this circuit becomes redundant). My experience with gutting the solenoid is the car seems to run richer and I no longer recommend it.

7) etc...

If you decide to stay stay "stock" just make sure that all systems are fully functional and inspect them regularly. Good luck with your ongoing project.

Barry

[ecohen2]

Hey Barry,

So originally I thought I was going to have to pass DC inspection, but I managed to register the car in another state as a antique car which solved that problem.

I agree about the system being one giant kludge. It appears to be a good mix of US automaker parts thrown at the car. As a result, I was able to replace all of the key components like the pump, etc with brand new parts by looking up the cross reference number. For example, the air-pump is the same as a Camero air-pump from the same time period. I also stripped out all of the vaccuum lines and replaced them with brand new silicon hoses. The car actually does run very well and I have every reason to believe it would pass inspection at this point.

I do experience a un-predictable high idle at times and I am attributing that to this last hose along with the need to re-attach the fuel cut off solenoid.

If I strip it all out and sell it, it would be a complete, working emission system. The upside to this would be that I get some performance. Do you think anyone would be interested?

Ed