PDA

View Full Version : Tech discussion by Guy Croft


DJ
6th June 2002, 08:13 AM
Allen Lofland recently posted this technical discussion of camshafts from Guy Croft on the Yahoo Scorpion forum. It was apparently a response from Guy to someone's question about camshaft timing figures. I thought it was a good explanation that anyone could understand and thought it would be a great thing to have in the Lancisti archives as well.

---------------------------------------------------

The quoted timing figures them only tell part of the story, so one cannot tell much about the performance from them.

Using your typical examples here's what the figures do tell you: 35/75, 75/35 - This is a pair of symetrical cams, duration 290 deg (sum of 35 +
75 + 180 deg). They could be billet or regrind, there is no way of telling just from the figures.

Inlet cam starts to open 35 crank deg before top dead centre (at the end of the exhaust stroke), achieves full lift 110 deg AFTER top dead centre [(35+180+75)/2]-35 deg, closes 75 deg after bottom dead centre.

Ex cam starts to open 75 deg after top dead centre (on the firing stroke), achieves full lift 110 deg BEFORE top dead centre and closes 35 deg after top dead centre (on the intake stroke).

The period for which both cams are open at the end of the exhaust stroke and the comencement of the intake stroke is 70 deg (35+35 deg).

The timing points outlined above will depend on the running clearance, so one might reasonably ask - are the figures of 37/75 75/35 quoted with clearance or without? If they are without, the true open and close points and overlap will be markedly different, although the most critical point, the full lift posiiton, will remain unchanged. This issue also affects the cam full lift.

Now - going to the nub of your question, what the timing figures above don't tell you is what the important part of the cam profile looks like. It might, to put it most simply, be fat - or skinny. If the full profile is mapped out, measuring the lift at each degree, then the shape of the profile can be plotted graphically and compared with another cam of the same quoted characterisitcs. the one with more area under the curve will
tend to generate more flow and thus a higher volumetric efficiency, particularly if shows a higher rate of inlet valve lift in the opening region.

The period of dwell at full lift is another thing you cannot predict without mapping the cams. Inlet dwell at full lift is important because it tells you that the cam is held open for a few critical degrees (usually not more than 6-10 crank degrees) at full lift, thus enhancing the airflow at the time when the valve intrudes least into the airstream.

It is perfectly possible for a cam of ostensibly shorter duration (say 290 deg, 37/75) to have stronger mean (average) airflow characteristics than a cam of longer duration (eg 300 deg 40/80) by virtue of the fact that the shorter duration cam has a fatter profile (and thus a higher mean lift if summed across the whole profile).

At the end of the day you really have to put two cams side by side and compare them, or better still map them and dyno them. This is why I always tell people to but only from reputable sources, giving preference to manufacturers who have bothered to invest in dynoing and track testing their own cams, and never trust just what the figures say.

All engines respond differently, for example the cam characterisitcs required by supercharged or turbocharged cams are radically different from those of naturally aspirated units.

Putting cams in an engine should never be undertaken without evaluating the whole engine spec. With luck, the engine will light up a treat, at worst it will be a mismatch and give no more power and be unreliable. The valve event, CR, and particularly the fuel and exhaust systems must match the cam characteristics. High back pressure for example, (ie: more than 4 psi) in the exhaust system, between the header and the first silencer (muffler) will wipe out any gains from a cam swap instantly.

If anyone wants me to pursue this topic further, please say!

Best wishes

Guy

Wallace
6th June 2002, 08:28 AM
Guy's "how too" in his book is cetainly worth doing (even to the extent of taking the cam carriers off the head and buying a cheep dial guage to pinpoint maximum lift.
It made one hell of a difference to my wreck.. . . :lol:

Gary Severson
6th June 2002, 12:03 PM
An extra step when maping a cam is to plot the cams acceleration curve to see if your valve train can handle it.
Gary Severson

Wallace
6th June 2002, 01:15 PM
And turn the engine over BY HAND before you start it up/bend the valves !!!!!!!!!! :lol:

Will
8th June 2002, 10:59 PM
This is all auto 101 stuff- (most of) you guys I would assume know how cams work, it's certainly not FIAT/Lancia specific, and you don't need Guy Croft's book to tell you this-or you shouldn't - any 4-stroke book will tell you the same thing.
While I agree with Wallace that you may want to roll the head over (off the block) by hand to check pasing clearances between the intake and exhaust cams, the piston-to-valve clearances should be checked by measurement.
A standard degree wheel can be cut into a ring and affixed to a spare phenolic aux shaft pulley, this makes a good cam degree wheel. You have to measure from the inverted bucket, and you have to advance the cam to the low point and then "back it up" to compensate for the bucket's tendency to hang in the bore. I use a magnetic ring around the lip of the bucket for extra weight, the dial gauge goes through the hole.
-Will

Bazza
28th June 2002, 11:09 AM
Just because the cam timing is 35/75 75/35 does not mean the cams are symmetrical - whilst it is unlikely , it is perfectly feasible for there to be a difference in opening and closing periods.

Wallace
28th June 2002, 11:39 AM
Well I didn't !!

First time round, I tried (!) to position the engine to a certain point and then set the cams for maximum lift .. . not easy or accurate (especially when the engin'es in the car .. . .)

point about giving the engine a final turn BY HAND is to make sure you havn't ballsed something up. Gives the valves one last chance to keep straight . . .. :D

Will
1st July 2002, 05:30 AM
Bazza:
35/75, 75/35 Cams ARE INDEED the same duration. The lifts could be different, but that too is unlikely, the majority of TC cam sets are identical lobes. In some cases, a change in the running clearance is used to fine tune the lift, and this can change the timing slightly. Not too much though- a couple of degrees perhaps. Depends on how fast the break is from the takeup plateau to the initial valve acceleration.
-Will

Bazza
1st July 2002, 05:41 AM
Bazza:
35/75, 75/35 Cams ARE INDEED the same duration. The lifts could be different, but that too is unlikely, the majority of TC cam sets are identical lobes. In some cases, a change in the running clearance is used to fine tune the lift, and this can change the timing slightly. Not too much though- a couple of degrees perhaps. Depends on how fast the break is from the takeup plateau to the initial valve acceleration.
-Will

I didn't say they were not the same duration - I merely said they were not necesarily symmetrical.

I have worked on tuning the FIAT TC engine since 1978 so I do know a little about them :wink:

DJ
1st July 2002, 07:23 AM
FYI, Bazza

Because of all the claims and misinformation about Fiat/Lancia camshafts that we hear over here in the states (Euro spec better than NA spec, etc.) Will has recently undertaken a project to measure, profile, and document as many cams as he can get his hands on. You may find this information of interest.

His files currently reside here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FIAT_TC_Motors/files/Cam%20profile%20library/

I plan to get them posted here at Lancisti soon too.

Regards,

Bazza
1st July 2002, 08:22 AM
Hi DJ,

I don't have the right membership to access: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FIAT_TC_Motors/files/Cam%20profile%20library/

Back in the '80s I plotted graphs for a wide range of TC cams including those that we developed ourselves - let me know if you want some details and I can email them so that you can post the info on here.

DJ
1st July 2002, 08:44 AM
Sorry. I forgot you had to sign up first. You can sign up there for free if you want.

Would love to have your cam data and I'm sure Will would really like to see it all (as well as many of our other users).

Regards,

Bazza
1st July 2002, 09:55 AM
Thanks DJ - I've worked it out now :wink:

One of the plots I do have is for Montecarlo Eurospec cams which from memory are quite a bit wilder than the Scorpion versions. I only have written notes and hand drawn graphs but I'll try and put them in xls format.

DJ
1st July 2002, 10:15 AM
Cool. It would be interesting to compare your data to Will's work.

Will
14th November 2002, 10:30 AM
I don't know how I missed this thread:
Barry: PLEASE!
I would LOVE to have that data, don't worry about formatting it, I'll enter it into the existing Excel database and it will plot automatically. All I need is the cam's spec duration, and actual lift above base circle in 1 degree increments.
(without running clearance)

I would really like to find a program that will calculate the cylinder pressure at a given speed given the bore, stroke, and valve curtain area, because this data could be plugged in, and as another lister says, "would be the dog's danglies" (thanks for the laugh, Hamish!)
-Will

Bazza
14th November 2002, 12:36 PM
I don't know how I missed this thread:
Barry: PLEASE!
I would LOVE to have that data, don't worry about formatting it, I'll enter it into the existing Excel database and it will plot automatically. All I need is the cam's spec duration, and actual lift above base circle in 1 degree increments.
(without running clearance)

I would really like to find a program that will calculate the cylinder pressure at a given speed given the bore, stroke, and valve curtain area, because this data could be plugged in, and as another lister says, "would be the dog's danglies" (thanks for the laugh, Hamish!)
-Will

Will - my data is a tad coarser than 1 degree increments but I still managed to produce fairly reasonable graphs - email me bazza@evocars.com & I'll post you the raw data scans.